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Thread: Pugalier breeders

  1. #31

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    The fact is there IS no regulation and there IS a big problem.. he just contributed to the problem.

  2. #32
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    Beloz, I agree people have a right to desire what they... Do.

    However, just to play devil's advocate for a moment... What features, characteristics or traits do cross breeds such a the 'aliers', 'oodles' and 'poos' really offer over and above a purebreed?

    I do not include rescuing from shelters... I mean deliberately seeking to breed or obtain a puppy from such a breeding based on preferences of type, trait etc.


    I don't have a preconceived answer to the question, I'm really honestly interested in what people think.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by puggerup View Post
    The fact is there IS no regulation and there IS a big problem.. he just contributed to the problem.

    But if those that genuinely do care about dogs' wellbeing and getting rid of puppy mills and dodgy BYB just always react with "These dogs should not be bred", that doesn't do anything to trying to improve the conditions these dogs are bred in. I cannot really explain it well... I would like to see the creation of some register of breeders for these dogs, with a code of practice etc similar to what purebred breeders use. And I know it can never be the same, but it would be one way to try and improve the breeding conditions at least. Because demand is never going to go away.

    But becasuse of the reactions of the registered breeder community, they are virtually pushed 'underground'. Does that make sense?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villain & Flirtt View Post
    Beloz, I agree people have a right to desire what they... Do.

    However, just to play devil's advocate for a moment... What features, characteristics or traits do cross breeds such a the 'aliers', 'oodles' and 'poos' really offer over and above a purebreed?

    I do not include rescuing from shelters... I mean deliberately seeking to breed or obtain a puppy from such a breeding based on preferences of type, trait etc.


    I don't have a preconceived answer to the question, I'm really honestly interested in what people think.
    I've no idea. But I sometimes don't get why some people like certain purebreeds so much either. It all comes down to personal taste and maybe it's little things like really specific physical characteristics. And maybe it is also because some people see dogs as objects, like a designer handbag. Which is sad, but no dissaproval is going to stop that, and our first concern should be the welfare of the dogs, I reckon.

  5. #35
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    I do not get what people see in the designer breeds either. Everyone seems to thinks they will also only inherit the positive aspects of a breed.

    My neighbours have a Whippet X Kelpie. They came over when the puppies were born and gushed over them and the adult dogs etc. Said they would one day get their purebred Whippet but have always gone for crosses because they previously lived inner-city and liked to walk their dog off-lead.

    They have now moved onto small acreage and haven't fenced the place, I've got news for them she wanders around the street when they aren't home, she has also been de-barked because she is ball crazy and barks non-stop, to me she inherited no good points from either breed. She is stiff in her rear action and I think she has mild HD. Not prevalent in either Whippets or Kelpies.

    As for the Ooodles, I looked after lots of these in boarding and again couldn't see anything that would sway me away from the purebred dog. The coat care alone for the Poodle crossed with a shedding breed is a nightmare in comparison to the real thing. I had to do a lot of in-house training with them and again wouldn't rate them above any of the purebreds, they were much the same.

    I could rescue a designer dog (for want of a better word) but I could never buy one, just the thought that I MAY be supporting a puppy farmer, breeder or someone that just supplies dogs just because they can is enough for me to say no.

  6. #36
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    To me, a dog is a dog, is a dog.

    I couldnt really give a rats ass whether it is purebred or crossbred.

    I dont think you need to buy a purebred to get the characteristics you want. I also dont think you need to have a list of characteristics. We have never picked a dog based on certain characteristics. If we did, we probably woudnt have ended up with half the dogs we have had.

    We just go looking when we are ready to get a new dog, and eventually we find the one we want, or we are led to the one we are meant to have however you want to look at it.

    That's not to say I dont have preferences in breed, but when it's time for a new dog, preferences often dont come into it for us.

    That is how we have ended up with a lab looking and acting dog, despite the fact I am not a huge fan of labs. That is also how we have ended up with a tiny dog, despite the fact I never really like little dogs LOL.

    And what is beautiful about the whole situation is, both dogs (despite being the types of dogs I would never have thought I would own), despite their vastly different personalities, are perfect fits for our family and ech other.

    I thnk if people want a "designer" for whatever reason, then that is their perogative. But it would be nice to see some sort of legislation involved in breeding....wont happen though.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    But if those that genuinely do care about dogs' wellbeing and getting rid of puppy mills and dodgy BYB just always react with "These dogs should not be bred", that doesn't do anything to trying to improve the conditions these dogs are bred in. I cannot really explain it well... I would like to see the creation of some register of breeders for these dogs, with a code of practice etc similar to what purebred breeders use. And I know it can never be the same, but it would be one way to try and improve the breeding conditions at least. Because demand is never going to go away.

    But becasuse of the reactions of the registered breeder community, they are virtually pushed 'underground'. Does that make sense?

    The thing is, if people stopped the demand by not purchasing, then for it to be of benefit to the breeders they would need to regulate, improve standards and conditions. If there is no clientele then they shut up shop or make changes. Simple as that. The more people purchase these pups, the more the problem is being fed.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    I've no idea. But I sometimes don't get why some people like certain purebreeds so much either.
    Can't argue there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    It all comes down to personal taste and maybe it's little things like really specific physical characteristics.
    Ok... I just want to think about this a minute... I have two pure Dobes. Different lines, but they do have a couple of common ancestors about 4 generations back. Both dogs have features generalisable to Dobes- they're black with rust markings, have a lean, muscly shape, particular skull structure. This could apply to lots of breeds, but what I'm getting at is you look at them and see 'Dobe'. Yet the two are chalk and cheese. I don't mean temperament only- physically too. His hair is short and soft. Hers is slightly longer and more harsh. His nose is blunt, hers a 'needle'. He has larger ears proportionally. Her structural shape is more compact. I could go on and on. Then I could go on about temperament differences, but I'm sure
    everyone gets the gist.

    So if you get that much variability in a purebred pair... I wonder how can you chose certain characteristics, particularly physical ones from a mating of two different breeds. It's hard enough with the same breed! With two different breeds, the potential 'gene pool' becomes significantly more diverse... Does it not?

    I've never bred a dog in my life. So I could be waaaaay off base. But I think a cross breeding is a bit of 'pot luck'. Even the most carefully thought out matings surely produce surprises?

    And I still go back to what characteristics might one be able to guarantee finding in any puppy from a litter of a cross breed mating that couldn't more reliably be produced from a pure mating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    And maybe it is also because some people see dogs as objects, like a designer handbag. Which is sad, but no dissaproval is going to stop that, and our first concern should be the
    welfare of the dogs, I reckon.
    I agree educate is better than denigrate. Absolutely. Guess if I wanted a designer handbag, though, once again for my bucks I'd want the real deal not a knockoff.

    I guess two things really bother me:
    1. The folks who want an 'oodle'. 'schnoo', 'alier', 'poo' because they want specific traits but won't consider a pure option even though it clearly inceases chances of success and
    2. It often happens that people wanting designer breeds comes here for advice but only wants to hear advice they like. And maybe that happens because they get disapproval. I dong know. But in general they seem to arrive in defensive mode.

    I have no issue with breeding cross or pure if you can make a sensible case for improving health or breed. I have no problem with the notion that there are terrific cross breed dogs out there! My family have one- a curly coat x bc (we think) and she is AWESOME. Of course there are awesome crosses out there, just as there are crappy pure breeds.

    I'm still just not sure how one might eliminate all pure breeds for a designer cross based on 'desired characteristics'?

    For simplicity sake. I'm leaving out the BYB and puppy mill considerations because, frankly, I think they are relevant for both pure and cross breeders (I mean no one any offense, promise!).

    And I'm still keen to hear peoples thoughts.

  9. #39
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    V&F, I would have to disagree with them "arriving in defence mode" (or whatever you said).

    I have seen many a first post from an oodle purchaser, reeking of excitement and happiness at their gorgeous new addition, or prospective addition and often the first post or two in the thread will be something at least a bit "lectury" about how they shouldnt be getting a puppy from a pet shop, if not downright rude.

    Personally, I think in order to educate, these people need to be welcomed with open arms. They have already bought or decided to buy the puppy so no amount of lecturing is going to change their mind, and we just ruin that special buzz you get with a new pup by putting a downer on it and then we never see them again, and hence lose the chance to educate someone.

    If however, they were welcomed and their pup cooed over initially and their excitement shared, they would continue to post here, meaning they would then start learning about mills etc. Which means the next time they want a pup, they go to a breeder or a shelter without having it shoved down their throat. In turn, they go on to tell others about puppy mills.

    I knwo everyone here wants to help stop mills etc, but by approaching it in the way we (and I am not ruling myself out of that either because Ive done it) do, we are losing that chance to educate and probably more firmly setting their opinion that it is ok to go to a petshop because "people who are into pures and rescue dogs" cant get a bit excited for them in their excitement and want to shove our views down their throat.

    Does that make sense?

    No wonder their second post is usually angry.

  10. #40
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    I agree with Lala that a bit of diplomacy could go a long way.

    I've been on this forum for a few months now, read all the arguments re breeding purebreds and I still would never get a purebred dog. But of course I was and always will be in favour of adopting rescues, so it's a bit different.

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