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Thread: Queensland Mastiffs ??

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    melbourne australia


    And also, the price, come on! As long as breeder think that $2K plus is an ok figure to charge for a PET. then BYB will flourish.

    Ive lived in a home that bred fox hounds to hunt with. I am well aware of the upkeep of breeding dogs. And it does NOT cost thousands. this is pure market forces. Where there is a buyer, there is a seller.

    I dont mind paying for a pedigree, if i want a particular breed, but as i dont compete, i dont see how a pup a breeder considers pet stock, not show stock can be sold for $2K upward. Rip off i reckon.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2011


    Supply and demand will always be a factor but few show breeders make much money if they were to take into account all outgoing costs with incoming revenue from puppy sales.

    Just to enter my two Whippet shows over easter cost me $158.00 add to that that I sponsored two classes a further $60.00 = $218.00. The Royal Easter Show entry costs even more, I've conveniently forgotten the costs so when my husband asks how much I can honestly say I forget, (but do remember I am charged $20.00 so I can park my car a good 15 minutes walk away so I can showcase my dogs), two other hound shows nearly $80.00 each in entries. So somewhere in the proximity of nearly $500.00 in entry fees alone over the Easter long weeend.

    I'm trying to save up for a new trolley $400.00. The Borzoi still doesn't have a c-crate as they are making the door sizes too small so that will be a special order by the looks of things and another couple of hundred dollars.

    Xrays and cartrophen injections last week over $300.00.

    Tick treatment, don't even want to add that up.

    Food for a litter, my puppies are fed Advance rehydrateable, over $30.00 for a small bag and to start them off with a good stomach used to different meats they get chicken, beef and lamb. To give you some idea of food costs for 7 dogs I'm willing to drive from NW Sydney to Canberra for a good meat supplier, of course I had to buy a freezer to put it in.

    You know each time you walk into a vet with your dog you are lucky to walk away for under $80.00. Times that by multiple dogs. We can all imagine the costs that Liss has just gone thru with her litter, that can happen to anyone.

    If you put two high demand low supply dogs into a back yard and breed the same pair, not take them out to compete then sure you will make money. If however you are a competitive show breeder you re really kidding yourself and have not done a proper budget if you think you do. Yes, it's my choice to do this. Yes most people don't care for the titles etc that come with it but I also sell a pet puppies from each litter and each are given the exact same care and consideration in breeding as the show ones
    Last edited by MAC; 03-14-2012 at 08:03 AM.

  3. #53


    I have no issues with paying 2k for a pet dog. I have no interest in dogs bred for the show rings - I would go so far as to argue that some of the breeding done for showing is not in the best interest of dogs on the whole (I don't know about all breeds but for many of the working ones at least). If no testing is done and the parents are not selectively chosen and/or special in any objective way, then yeah it would be a complete rip off. But just because the parents aren't pure, if they have all the same health tests and the owners are putting them through their paces to choose who to breed - well why should they be worth less?

  4. #54


    Showing is a hobby, but unless you also want a dog to show, there is no reason to buy from a breeder whose dogs are winning shows. These dogs do not have to be healthy or of a good temperament. If the breeders choose to test their dogs and breed for good temperaments, this is separate from their hobby of showing. The 3 years I spent meeting with Doberman breeders taught me this much - I visited the house of the dog who had won the top prizes for that year; I had been referred to them from a dog show. He was about to be mated to a bitch (his half sister) who was showing signs of wobblers at 2 (which they acknowledged). They said it wouldn't be a problem and that she would easily rear the puppies with no problems. They told me I would be lucky to have a doberman healthy past 6. And yet they were going to charge me $1950 for one of their puppies.

  5. #55


    I'd always go for a show breeder if you are after a certain breed. It's so easy to be kennel blind if you aren't actively competing. It only takes a few generations to stray away from what the breed should look like. Show dog doesn't equal unhealthy dog. Bad breeder equals unhealthy dog.

  6. #56


    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    I'd always go for a show breeder if you are after a certain breed. It's so easy to be kennel blind if you aren't actively competing. It only takes a few generations to stray away from what the breed should look like. Show dog doesn't equal unhealthy dog. Bad breeder equals unhealthy dog.
    Yes but show dog does not equal healthy dog either. If a breeder is only breeding to win prizes, well their dogs may very well be capable of that but what else they're capable of and how healthy they will be etc is up in the air. And more importantly, if the breed was developed to guard, protect, herd sheep, retrieve or rescue people buried in avalanches, competing at dog shows does not assess their ability to perform any of these other functions. As you said, it only takes a few generations to stray away from what the breed should be able to do and look like (hence the changes seen in show GSD's as compared to working lines etc). People can change their minds about how their dogs should look, and if there's nothing else by which the dogs are assessed (no physical, health or mental tests) well the dog can end up with a look that actually precludes it from its original function (which in my opinion has been the case for most of the Neopolitan Mastiffs I have seen at dog shows - except of course for Nero but does Peter show him?)

    I suppose it depends on the breed you want. When people need working dogs, they don't call show breeders. I do know of a doberman breeder who thought he could have it all, win prizes at the shows and produce dogs capable of doing what the breed was bred for, he won lots of best in show but his top bitch doesn't even alert to people breaking into his house so he has now stepped away from the show ring breeders and gone to Von Roth... If you want a particular breed and you want it for more reasons than just how it looks, you will need to go to a breeder who breeds for more than looks (which of course doesn't mean they can't breed for looks as well).

  7. #57


    I personally want a dog that is both fitting the breed standard and healthy. To get that I know my best shot is with a show breeder.
    I agree, people can change their minds about how dogs should look which is why many breeders need to go back to basics and study the breed standard and determin whether or not their stock really does fit the description.
    I'm not saying all show breeders are good, same as not all BYB's are bad, but if I am concerned with wanting a dog that looks like a particular breed and I will support the ethical show breeder over a backyarder. I just like the assurance that the dog I am buying really is going to end up looking like the intended breed, not just someones individual interpretation of it.
    Some people want working dog and that's fine, but there's also nothing wrong with liking a dog based on looks, that's how I ended up with my breed. It was looks first and then temperament research after that to make sure it fit my lifestyle.
    After I decided on a breed I researched breeders. I had to get a dog flown in from another state because the breeder I decided on, who did all the appropriate health testing lived far away.
    My boy from that kennel won his first best in show last year and hasn't had a single health issue, he's fit for purpose and has cleared all his tests so far ready for breeding.

    Sorry for the rant... Unfortunately there is such a negative outlook on show breeders and we tend to arc up when the topic rises and defend ourselves.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2011


    Really you are tarring all show breeders with the same brush. I've been in and out of the show ring for yonks and while there are bad registered breeders there are also good registered ones. I don't tar all pet owners with the same brush and expect that they will lose interest in the pup once it's beyond the cute puppy stage, I don't expect all pet owners to do nothing more than stick the dog in the back yard, yet plenty do.

    My dogs are still true to the lure even though they are champions and best in show etc winners and they can still catch rabbits as good as any Whippet from yesteryear. They also have less problems than some of the ones bred for competition racing.

    Years back when I was in Kelpies I was approached by a farmer wanting to purchase a young stud dog I had, why, he wanted to put more bone in his fine legged working dogs, he'd bred good strong bone out of his working dogs by concentrating of working ability only.

    Everyone can do bad things with dogs, not just show breeders. I've seen plenty of mutts in rescue with shocking temperaments, why, not genetics but poor puppy socialisation. This is one area that I would say some breeders fall back on and not because of genetics but because of poor time management and too many dogs so pups miss critical periods of socialisation. But I've also met many farm dogs with shocking temperaments, why again because they do not get off property enough and have missed critical periods of socialisation so there are not too many farms where I'd just hop out of the car and expect the resident dog to be all cuddly nor would I expect they would handle some of the situations we all put our dogs in daily. I've also come across many mutts etc that have temperament problems and again much of this is incorrect socialisation.

    We also need to remember when talking of temperament the breed and it's purpose, eg Ridgebacks a breed I'm familiar with do not have Labrador personalities but in today's society that's basically what they need.

    I agree with Crested, people knock show breeders at every turn, nobody posts how good their breeder is, you only hear of the bad ones - no news is good news they say. I've not had any complaints from my owners with pet puppies from show stock, apart from the fact that I don't breed enough. I've got dogs in homes where they own not one but two and three of my dogs, all from different litters. Many other breeders are exactly the same getting people coming back to them wanting another of their dogs.

    Many breed clubs, like ours, also picks up the pieces left behind by BYBs etc. Only one dog that has come to me since I've been the rescue coordinator for Whippets has come from a registered breeder and I've contacted her breeder who is out Orange way and she is driving to Sydney to take the dog back.
    Last edited by MAC; 03-14-2012 at 04:55 PM.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Sunshine coast Qld


    I agree with bottles.......I have seen the best and the worst of pure bred breeders and the results of xbreeding both good and bad, and believe that the personal glory of attaning the "grand champion" title for some, far outweighs the best interest of the dogs and the breed, hence we have the huge amount of genetic disorders and diseases within the pure bred community.

    My family, starting with my great grandparents who have always been "registered", have bred CKCS for their temperment, conformation, functionality and foremost health.
    I have those lines in my 4, who have had all the testing, are healthy, happy and functional. I am registered, have had 2 litters only from my 2 females, have always presold most of my pups and have never had an unsold pup after 3 weeks old, never register them, sell only as companions and could sell my pups 10 times over.
    They never want for anything, are lying with me right now on the sofa, have the best vetcare and food, yet I am considered a BYB by some on this site.
    To me puppy mills are any place that has more dogs than they can properly care for in a social and caring environment, and keeps that many dogs for the personal or monetary benefit of the owners either registered or not.
    BYB's are anyone who indiscrimently and irresponsibly breeds animals either accidently or to sell for profit without thought for the welfare of the mother or the future of the pups,
    What distinguishes backyard breeders from responsible breeders are the standards that the breeder meets and whether there is a known demand for puppies before they are bred..

    It dosent matter whether you are registered or not, there are good and bad in both and its not fair that those not interested in "showing", yet ethically breed healthy purebred or x bred companion animals, are tarred with the same brush as those who treat their animals as a commodity or are ignorant and just just care.

    And I will still argue the point, I hear some registered breeders crucifying anyone else who breeds, yet they breed continuously, sell the pups, but your not allowed to breed from it unless i say so, then sell off older dogs when they pass the point of being able to breed anymore, then sell those that are not going to "make the grade" then buy more "stock"to add to the 16 they already have but can only remember their show names as they dont have the time to interact with that many dogs, so they usually just languish in their concrete kennel till showtime , all in the name of improving the breed?

    I dont think the dogs thenselves would agree..
    The old saying people in glass houses.................

    Somewhere the supposed welfare and happiness of these animals has become second best to making money needed to succeed in show along with the excuse "to better the breed".

    Am waiting for the hammer to fall, but this is just my opinion and luckily we are able to share it.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  10. #60


    cavalierqld, genuine question, not having a go at you... How do you know your cavaliers are correct to standard and you just aren't seeing them with rose colored glasses?
    Everyone thinks their own dogs are beautiful and I don't see what you are doing as being any different than a show breeder other than you don't go to shows. So if you are trying to breed for conformation, then why are your dogs bred with the best of interests, yet show breeders who breed for the exact same things do it for personal glory?

    I know you aren't saying all show breeders, but there's a bit of a contradiction there unless I misinterpreted.

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