Sorry. Double Post
Sorry. Double Post
Last edited by Villain & Flirtt; 12-15-2011 at 12:50 PM.
I wonder if it would be worth creating a 'sticky' specifically for those type of people. It could warn about the unpredictability of the designer breeds and maybe even suggest some alternatives - like the Tibetan whatever it was instead of a pugalier. Then it could explain that if they really, really, really have their heart set on a designer cross - for whatever reason - that they do have a responsibility to make sure they use a breeder who at least does health checks and keeps their dogs in good condition. It could then also mention that responsible breeders are unfortunately hard to find for those crossbreeds and that that may be another reason to choose a purebred instead. Or try the shelters or rescue orgs.
Or something like that. It should have all the arguments that we all agree on, but in a way that doesn't make them feel defensive and chases them away. We want them to read to the end and hopefully take some of the advice to heart.
That does bring up another sensitive topic though. For those who will not change their mind on wanting one of these crosses, there really doesn't seem to be any advice on where to get one other than from puppy mills. I am fairly sure that at least for some of these crossbreeds, there must be some better breeders - as far as health checks and caring for their dogs goes. Naming them might prevent some people buying from puppy mills? I know that would be very controversial and that most here would not want to be seen endorsing BYBs of any sort. But I think we should be realistic about this and steering people away from the worst of the breeders would be a positive outcome, I believe.
For me it's the reasons BEHIND the breeding of them.
What purpose does a cavoodle, schnoodle, pugalier, labradoodle, pomapoo etc have? Why do people breed them?
I know there are purebreds bred specifically as companion animals... I have one, but originally 90% of purebreds were bred with a specific purpose in mind, not just to fill up pet stores or homes.
I will use my breeds as an example....
The Poodle. Now, if you look at a Labradoodle they look pretty much the same as a poodle when they are unclipped so it's not appearance that makes them different. It's not the allergy issues as Labradoodles have a higher chance of having a coat that people can be allergic to.
So what is it?
People assume that it will change the temperament, but why would you want to exactly? The poodle is the second most intelligent breed of dog overall and highly trainable, what does the Lab have to offer by crossing that into the mix?
As for purpose, well the Labradoodle was intended to be a hypoallergenic seeing eye dog. And you know what, the man who started this breeding program discontinued it as it DIDN'T WORK.
The original purpose of the poodle was as a water retriever and are still used to this day for their intended purpose.
My other breed the Chinese Crested people assume is just a weird little companion animal. Now that is partly true, they were originally discovered in Africa by Chinese merchants and brought back as a curiosity... But on the boats they travelled on they proved to be excellent ratters and eventually were bred with this purpose in mind which is why they kept their original characteristics such as the elongated hare foot, perfect for scuttling around and climbing over a deck for rats.
Then of course there's the issue of health... "Hybrid vigor"... please... really... Yes it's true that hybrid vigor can rule out some problems, but only in the first generation. Take PRA for example, breed a clear dog to a carrier and 50% of the pups will also be carriers.
Breed one of those pups to another carrier and blam... you have the problem again.
But what people negelct to mention is that things like this are TESTABLE diseases... I only know of ONE designer dog kennel who actually tests for this disease, yet I know dozens of purebred kennels who do.
Me personally... I just prefer purebreds, I don't care if it makes me sound elitist, a dog snob or whatever you want to label me with but I want a dog that actually has a purpose and a reason for being here not just to line someone's pockets or because they thought it would be a "good idea".
Sorry Crested, but I don't agree with the argument that they should not be bred because they don't serve a purpose. Whatever their original purpose may have been, the vast majority of breeds are now simply companion animals. And sure, some may choose a working dog because they like an active dog to take jogging. And some may like a hunting dog's drive for whatever reason. But most just want a dog that will be good with the kids and maybe likes to chase balls, some may like a more active dog, some a dog that doesn't require much excercise (the majority of families would probably choose the latter!) Who cares if their dog is good at ratting, unless you have have horse stables or a chicken farm maybe. But a big cat would do the same... Or a few traps.
Apart from the small minority who actually uses dogs for what they were bred for, mainly farmers, there just is no need anymore to breed dogs for any purpose other than that they will be good family dogs, with healthy genes and a good temperament.
The whole "bred for a purpose" is now no more than a sentimental attachment to the past. And I am not saying that is wrong. To each their own. But I don't know why you would want to talk people who don't share your attachment to the history of a breed or breeds out of buying a dog that they think will make an ideal family pet.
I would even argue that the history of a breed - ie. the purpose they were bred for - may make them popular with the wrong kind of people. You should see how many working dogs end up in shelters here. Probably because so many see them as Australian icons representing the pioneer spirit of the sheep farmers. And even though lots of those dogs bought by people in the suburbs come from show lines and may not have the same activity levels as the working line dogs, they still have higher excercise requirements than most other breeds and lots of ordinary families cannot handle them. So I would be very happy if some 'working dog' breeders that sell them to non-farmers would select breeding dogs on characteristics that would make them more suitable to life in the suburbs! Instead of rigidly sticking to some standard that results in dogs that do not always suit our modern lifestyle.
As for the health testing, that ties in with what I keep trying to get across: accept that people are going to breed these crosses and try to persuade them to adher to some sort of regulation that will encourage them to do all the health tests that they can. Then refer people wanting one of these crossbreeds to those breeders who are responsible in that regard.
Oooooo interesting posts. Loooove interesting posts.
Beloz, I like the sticky idea and I think with careful wording it's doable. I believe that the emphasis needs to be put on that by buying any designer breed you buy into the dodgy world of people who breed for the sake of breeding so are essentially suppliers. So for me even if a person health tests etc unless they plan on keeping a pup themselves to me they are suppliers. I have 7 entire dogs/bitches at home and I never breed for the sake of breeding and I never breed the same ones constantly.
Anyone who breeds a litter with the sole purpose of selling the entire litter is a byb and supplier of puppies earning money from doing so and putting their bitch at risk for money alone and that's whether they be purebred and wonderful examples of their breed or two popular breeds of little dogs.
I strongly believe if these purpose bred Xbreds were not cute and slightly individual then they would not attract the attention and 'must have' attitude that people have for them even after hearing all the negatives. Hence why they will always exist even if someone develops them to a point of regularity. Hence why people are willing to pay large amounts for blue SBTs or non brindle Whippets etc. And all the while people want, people will supply them.
Crested, yep like you I am a breed snob I guess, I do believe original purpose impacts greatly on our dogs to this day, if it didn't we could all take home any dog and live happily ever after. Maybe not as stringently as yesteryear but certainly it is still within our breeds today. (low behold the cat/rat/rabbit etc that wants to test my Whippets original purpose by bravely entering our backyard).
The emphasis of these oodles is purely cute looks, particularly the miniature or toy poodle X's there is no niche that they are filling there is an equivalent of another breed to fill just about every criteria that anyone's looking for in an ooodle. And most importantly I deplore the idea of mixing them with a shedding dog, wrong in so many way.
The Silken Windhound which began it's conception prior to the 80's by an experienced Borzoi breeder is still not recognised and while others may disagree there is a void of a medium sized coated sighthound, all the sighthounds are large with the exception of the Whippet which does not have the protection of the coat when running at high speed. But regardless of what I think there was a person with a plan, no $$$ signs in their head. They were not cross breeding dogs of entirely different temperaments or purpose and in fact the Whippet only supplied a small portion of the conception of this breed.
And in the end I feel that the development of small designer dogs is setting up a whole lot of dogs for an unhappy life because they were primarily bought for their cuteness.
Last edited by MAC; 12-15-2011 at 04:06 PM.
MAC, surely not all registered breeders of purebreds keep a pup of every litter?
I like the traits, and requirements to keep both a poodle and a cavalier. I dont like the super long ears of the cav, and in my research have not found a cavoodle with super long ears. Also toy poodles have pointy little faces, the cav in the mix broadens the face. For me the cross is all about the appearance.
Is there something wrong with buying a particular cross breed for its cuteness? As long as you have looked at the two parents breeds individually and can meet exercise and grooming for both i fail to see a problem?
Some people do breed litters without the intent to keep a pup, but already have a home lined up where they can use that dog or bitch down the track and incorporate it into their lines. I have a dog here who is completely mine, but the breeder sold him to me on the condition she could use him at stud down the track.
ANKC rules actually prohibit breeding solely for the pet market.
I think purpose plays a very important role... When you start breeding just for the sake of it and losing sight of the real purpose of the breed that's when things get "hairy". Again, with the poodle look at their temperament, they should be a calm, steady and intelligent dog capable of withstanding gunshots and leaping into freezing lakes.
There are a lot going around that are highly strung and severely lacking in the mental department... Now I know every dog is different but some breeders are caring less about temperament which is producing these nutty poodles.
A poodle should NOT have a pointy or wizzly looking face, that is incorrect for the breed and sadly, this is how many people picture a poodle
Meet Brody, my 3 year old miniature poodle... nothing 'fine' about him.
Any that are any good do. Anyone else is flying under the banner of a registered breeder but are puppy suppliers, I certainly wouldn't buy from a breeder who didn't plan on keeping on a pup, because the planning of the litter is the important part. No breeder friend of mine breeds a litter without the intent of keeping at least one puppy.
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