See BL thats where it all goes astray for me when you use that one word "outdated". Why is it that something used successfully in the past needs to be changed?
Beloz alpha's succeed through dominance.
I dont mind 5 seeds actually, still now as good as strongbow!
1. on the leader of a wild pack of wolves or dogs using dominance to maintain his alpha position
2. on this being an instinct that domesticated dogs carry in their genes.
3. on dogs seeing us as a true part of the pack
I think the discussion on 1 is pretty trivial if you believe that 2 and/or 3 are not true.
I can use examples in so many forms or life..
All of the above were made, used, operated one way but have evolved from that as they have found/Created a better way of getting the same result or even better result.
I am not saying the whole Alpha theory is a Rubbish I am just saying like 99.9% of things in life we have to move on, evolve etc Its the great Circle of life
If you watch a pack of dogs, it is not the leader who does all the satnd-over tactics...it is the one well below him. leaders often just lead and are follwed.They give off softer ways of asking the pack (and I am talking domestic dogs). They are just there. the wanna-bees are the ones trying to muscle in. And they are mostly unsuccessful. unless they are the aggressive pack leader(use pure force and they are not that common) and just like with aggressive people they make the other dogs do things with fear. that is not a good pleasant pack.
...........Just observing the multiple dogs in your own house teaches you a lot more about behaviour than any book or video.
I like the passive firm leaders in the dog world.....it gives a calm environment. That is the system I want to immitate. My dogs know that I am not a dog and I know they are not human. I like to lead my dogs and want them to follow and not make them wary and fear me.
What I want to say is actually very hard to put in words.........
To also add.....Sometimes you have to treat some dogs differently to most dogs. My Annabelle has surely tested me this way. I was all pure R+/P- until I got her as a Rescue. And that is why I had to go to different Trainers for help. As what i was trying to do did not help. She did get some P+ correction, but with good timing and from experienced trainers and only when she was in confident aggressive mode. It actually did my head in when I was first in that "new environment"........ But it helped her and she is now a really happy confident dog with no aggression. I will always watch her, but she is now treated the same as my other dogs. I suppose that is why I will never accept the complete revulsion some people have against compulsion training (P+). But even when she was corrected as soon as she did what we asked she was rewarded.
Even now she is still the town bully.She is not the Leader and Luke is, but she will still occasionally hassle/bully the others ( never Lukey). Some people call that dominance, but it is not. It is her insecure position in our pack where she would like to be the leader but is not. The Leader of our pack is a very passive Leader, shares everything allows all the dogs near his food. We have no food aggression at our place. We hardly ever eat before our dogs, our dogs are allowed on the couch (when they ask and we say yes) or just when we are not there. We do not always go out of the door first. But if you ever get to meet our dogs you will see that they are friendly and easy to get along with.
I think quiet Obedience training is very similar to what a good leader dog has with his pack.
So in a very long winded way (sorry) I think I am saying that dogs that behave in what people call a Dominant way are often the dogs that do not know where they are in a pack or in the human Family, they feel they do not have a good leader to follow.They do not have good leadership. And I personally always think that good basic training (and teaching tricks too) always brings us out as good leaders for them to follow and be happy with.
Last edited by newfsie; 10-18-2011 at 04:19 PM. Reason: added
Pets are forever
I think that this whole alpha theory is far more complex than most people imagine, regardless of what species wolves, apes, horses. I don't know much about wolves but have been around horses quite a bit. As far as I could see the relationship between horses is much more important than the hierarchy itself. The hierarchy also seemed to be somewhat fluid depending on situation, horses involved etc. I'm not saying this theory is rubbish but I think most people have an over simplistic and perhaps romantic view of how these things work.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)