I don't think CM uses methods like NILIF. His methods aren't about deprivation, they are more focused on flooding etc.
When I train my dogs or any other dogs for that matter, my number one goal is that they maintain a good up attitude. As an obedience instructor CM's methods are simply impractical for me, I have no desire to get bitten even half as often as CM does.
End of the day, CM uses compulsion and flooding. Much worse than what's in the video in the OP.
Compulsion training has it's place and should NOT be the first option.
The guy in the video is not cruel, but he is a moron.
CM's idea: Lets scare the crap out of a dog, give it it's worse nightmare, then we'll try training it by pushing it around and forcing it into a position where it has no choice but to shut down. I'll pass, thanks anyway.
Guy in the video, had a dog in a distraction free environment, and was teaching the dog what he wanted from it - admittedly he is a crap trainer, but he was not being cruel to that dog in any way.
End of the day... Like what you have said its correct and diminishes any other persons view on the video but..
End of the day, that's not how I see it, that's not how half of us see it! We see the video from a different angle and although it may not be the way you see it doesn't not mean its incorrect.
Most agree that this toss bag is exactly that, a toss bag. Would I let him touch my dog, in a bloody pink fit. Would I let Ceaser train my dog NO! Some of his methods as I have stated are not good for my dogs personality.
But at the end of the day CM IS WORSE. You may not see it but it is there. Flooding a dog and putting it over threshold and then correcting it for that IS NOT TRAINING, then calling it a success when the dog shuts down (and stops reacting because it has shutdown) is a CROCK.
Every dog that Cesar works with he puts over threshold and puts through unnecessary stress.
You may not believe us now, but in America he is becoming less and less popular, top trainers and scientists (Dr Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson, Sophia Yin, Sarah Kalnajs, Dr Nicholas Dodman) are speaking out against his training methods about how outdated they are. It won't be long before CM starts to change his methods to conform with science based and proven training methods.
Oh and Pugger in answer to your questions why he is so popular why does he have a TV show? Because he is a money maker, because people like you, BDL and others believe the crock coming out of his mouth. People who know little about dog behaviour and ethology don't know any better and make him as popular as he is (which also makes him a money maker for Nat Geo etc). Nat Geo will continue to run his program until it is no longer profitable or until it makes them look bad int he eyes of the general public.
Don't want to listen to us FINE then do your own research, here is some stuff to start with:
New Study Finds Popular “Alpha Dog” Training Techniques Can Cause More Harm than Good | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
BEYOND CESAR MILLAN - Home
Veterinary Behaviorists Take a Stand Against Cesar Millan
Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan
AVSAB Letter to Merial | Facebook
Pack of Lies - Op-Ed - NYTimes.com
The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up - Esquire
Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist, Animal Behavior Clinic, Purdue University
Richard Belzer: First Do No Harm
QUOTES FROM EXPERTS:
World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan’s methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers
“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO
"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Vyolet Michaels, CTC, CPDT (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ
"Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."
Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"
"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC
to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”
"I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated... I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
Steve Dale is the author of the twice weekly syndicated newspaper column “My Pet World” (Tribune Media Services). He’s also the host of syndicated radio programs Steve Dale’s Pet World, The Pet Minute with Steve Dale; and Pet Central, at WGN Radio, Chicago. Steve is a contributing editor at USA Weekend, special correspondent/columnist Dog World and editor-in-chief of PawPrints (a newsletter for veterinarians). His books include “American Zoos” and “DogGone Chicago.” Steve’s appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show; National Geographic Explorer; Pets Part of the Family on PBS; several Animal Planet Shows; Fox News Channel, and Balance TV (Canada). He was a regular on WGN-TV Chicago. Touted as reaching more pet owners than any other pet journalist, Steve’s a frequent guest expert on radio shows all over America and Canada; he’s been quoted in dozens of newspaper and magazine stories, including the Los Angeles Times, USA Today, and Redbook. He's certified as a Behavior Consultant by the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, and the recipient of many awards including the prestigious AVMA Humane Award.
Last edited by Keira & Phoenix; 10-11-2011 at 09:27 AM.
Pfft, I don't know why these discussions always have to turn into accusations of ignorance and just pretty aggressive argueing?
No one here has expressed a strong view about CM's being good or preferable or whatever. It's not because some may like watching his show that they think he's the great trainer he likes to make people believe he is. BL said they would not let him train their dog. You obviously have strong views about his methods being harmful or not and that is your good right. It's your good right to bring it up too, but I don't get why that has to happen in such an aggressive way.
Remarks like "Don't want to listen to us FINE" just get my hackles up. They are patronising and lead to defensive reactions.
I am totally getting over this kind of stuff. It would be nice to just have a debate for once without people starting to resort to such tactiques.
Anywho, I'll leave others to it now to have the last word. Another thread I won't be revisiting because the immature communication style makes my blood pressure rise too much.
Why do I have to do some research? I dont give a shit to be honest! I am not going to take my dog there, I am not following his exact way of training. So just because I dont hate him and talk crap about him means I dont know anything..? :Confused:
I Really dont care!
I am trying to teach Ruby to drop, I seen this guy on youtube while doing some research and thought he was a toss bag so I posted it.
When it comes to Ceaser I think he does great work with his charities, his time, money and effort that he has put in for years before he was even on Tv.
Somethings yes, they make me cringe.
The different between this guy and CM is that CM is generally dealing with problem dogs this guy is trying to teach the dog a bloody trick FFS!
You see that as no different where I do.
Like I said to smeagle, you are not going to see what I see and I am not going to see what you see there is no point in Butting heads and pi$$ing each other iff is there?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)