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Thread: Your Thoughts on ANKC, Showing and the Outcomes for Dogs.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Sunshine coast Qld

    Default Your Thoughts on ANKC, Showing and the Outcomes for Dogs.

    I found this forum while looking for a certain breed for a friend of mine, and after having read through the posts, I would like to pose this question to members.
    I have serious doubts regarding the inability of the ANKC and many kennel clubs worldwide to protect the welfare interests of purebred dogs while they are still prescribing to conservative, centuries old ideologies and traditions that are harmful to the canine species.

    These are are a few quotes from ANKC site refering to its stratagies for improving the health and well being outcomes of pedigree dogs. I believe this information is dated 2009 so would be interested to hear of any implimentations or changes that have been made since this document especially in the areas of genetics and breed standard exaraggerated conformation.
    Also I would like your thoughts on WHY you feel the ANKC has not implimented mandatory extensive health testing for ALL dogs entered in shows?
    To me this seems the fastest and most logical way to deal with the inherent genetic disease problems within most pure breeds?
    Australian National Kennel Council

    2. Disease prevalence data collection and analysis. (LIDA)
    The LIDA database has the possibility to provide a system to determine prevalence rates for specific disorders for each registered pedigree breed. However, this is a long term ongoing project which will require a large amount of input and assessment.

    The ANKC Ltd feels that the system is limited in that it depends upon veterinarians collecting and forwarding on the information. Many of these diseases can be quite obscure and difficult to diagnose in some breeds as they may manifest at quite a young age and may fail to get diagnosed correctly. Another problem with LIDA is the possibility of incorrect identification of breeds by the Veterinarian. For example some Labrador crosses look similar to the pure bred. The ANKC Ltd is also concerned that it is mooted that information from non pedigree dogs will also be listed on the database.

    Funding issues will also be long term and ongoing in order to provide ongoing support to LIDA to increase its data collection capacity. Instigation of breeders reporting of inherited disorders to LIDA certainly is a long term possibility and would considerably widen the data base input.

    Some breed clubs already have internal reporting mechanisms; however use of these is often poor but certainly can be pushed by the Health and Welfare Committee.

    The recording of inherited disease data is one of the major issues to be addressed by the ANKC Ltd Canine Health & Welfare Committee. The ANKC Ltd is in the process of trying to develop its own nationwide data base for the logging the results of all inherited diseases. This will take significant money and time to develop. It is envisaged that there will be both open and closed registers initially, with the end goal of having disease data results printed on pedigrees for easy access to all buyers and potential breeders. This is certainly a long term project and will take time to achieve its long term goals.

    The Opening of stud books is an area that is strongly opposed by many breeders.

    The Opening of stud books is an area that is strongly opposed by many breeders. Where this has been done as with the LUA Dalmatians, it has been done to counteract the high uric acid problem that affects all Dalmatians. This is a very useful and purposeful exercise. These Low Uric Acid dogs have now been accepted by the Kennel Club (UK).

    Breed extensions is an area with continual review – this is undertaken every 5 -10 years across all breeds and is an area that could become very proactive in promoting fitness and health in breeds. These are used to educate judges and to a lesser degree breeders. A higher emphasis on health and welfare aspects as well as the fit for function can be readily brought in along with the need to avoid exaggerations.

    These are all long term goals that will need time, education and a whole shift in the dog breeding fraternity philosophy towards dog breeding and exhibition. This, like any major shift, is often subtle but eventually quite profound. “Fit for function, fit for life” should be the eventual common goal for us all.

    From these stratagies, there seems to be an underlying vein of ,-_long term goals - need more time - education - long term ongoing project - more funds.

    How much longer do we need? Why is there not a movement to FORCE every show or breeding animal to have health testing, including and especially genetic disfunction and disease?

    Should a "champion" ONLY be a champion, if he is fit, functional and free of genetic disorders? I certainly think so..

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Rural NSW


    I have no experience so no real thoughts about any of this except to say I would indeed prefer all were health checked. If they are proclaimed champions due to breed standards, colour or whatever they should also be mandatory health checks and proof of it shown before the dog is in the ring. If I had purchased a pup from a true champion and found bad medical problems as it wasn't checked I would be well and truly pissed off as opposed to getting a rescue dog and problems surfacing. Luck of the draw with that one.

    I will be watching this thread with interest.

    Any posts made under the name of Di_dee1 one can be used by anyone as I do not give a rats.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2011


    I agree Di - I don't feel that I have enough insight, knowledge or understanding to actually comment on this issue. My own experience is limited to pets, and my concern there (since knowing more about breeder registration and practices etc) has been round buying a dog without health problems, from an ethical breeder.

    I agree with your last point that a champion should only be fit to possess that title if they are fit, functional and free from genetic disorders. And I generally consider these factors to be of primary importance, and factors that should definitely be prioritised above look/type. That said, I'm personally not concerned with breed standards, in terms of those things - I like fit, healthy and happy dogs. However they come is fine by me.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011


    You send me a bucket load of money and I'll send my champions off for testing.

    What diseases would you like to start with? None are prolific in my breed. At what age would you like them sent off for testing? Who is going to pay for the extra resources to implement all of this, the breeders of course. Who is willing to pay more for a puppy? I think the only people who will come out on top will be the vets.

    I also have a Gordon Setter. The Gordon Setter Club already has it's members forward them the results of their required genetic testing, they are published in their newsletter for all members to see. That way breeders can select outside stock based on good looks AND good genes. Not that they need to really publish them anywhere they know what tests to ask for before using a stud.

    Contrary to popular believe many many breeders do not need a governing or controlling body to do the right thing.

    So what if a dog is a champion but not genetically sound for breeding. Ask for proof of paperwork and if you don't like what you see go to a breeder who has dogs that "pass all the health testing" and are champions.

    I don't give a toss if a dog is a champion, but not genetically sound, judges can put it up above my dog and it still wouldn't worry me. It will only worry me when it comes to breeding from that dog and since most breeders wouldn't select to use said dog where is the problem? How does that impact on anyone other than other show people.

    Should I also get cheesed off at the person who shows their champion dog, free of genetic diseases with all the paperwork to prove it but doesn't want to breed from it. Plenty of people do that too.

    People keep saying that they have no interest in whether their puppy comes from champion stock. They are interested in seeing the results of relevant health testing and temperament. My last litter was bred from two dogs that hadn't yet completed their championships, not one puppy buyer cared. My next litter due next month will come from two champions, again I doubt this will impact on potential buyers unless they are interested in showing/breeding from said puppy. Will there be any difference in price between the puppies of this litter and the last - no because I know it is of no interest to the general pet buying public.

    So the only importance of whether a dog is a champion and genetically sound is to other registered breeders who thru word of mouth already know.

    It is hard enough and expensive enough being a dog breeder and showie, make it any more complicated and only the rich will be involved, it will become a business, swamped in paperwork.

    Why don't people start taking responsibility for what they buy.
    Last edited by MAC; 07-22-2011 at 02:53 PM.

  5. #5


    How much longer do we need? Why is there not a movement to FORCE every show or breeding animal to have health testing, including and especially genetic disfunction and disease?

    Should a "champion" ONLY be a champion, if he is fit, functional and free of genetic disorders? I certainly think so..
    I both agree and disagree with this...

    I think there does need to be more control over health testing of dogs, too many dodgy breeders get away without testing. But on the other hand, some breeders may not need to test for certain diseases and there are some diseases that either cannot be tested for or have not been proved to be hereditary.

    Take Gastric Torsion for example, some people will argue it is hereditary, some argue it is just a case-by-case problem. There is no test for it, you just have to wait and see if your dog bloats.
    My mum has been breeding Danes for 25 years, she uses the same lines and if she introduces fresh ones makes sure there has never been a case of bloat in them... to this day her record and all pups produced has been clean.
    She knows other kennels who have had many dogs bloat over the years that are from different lines.

    What happens there? There is no proof that it is hereditary, even though the evidence points to yes. Do you force the kennel to desex the dog that bloated and all relations to it even though it may not have happened until the dog is 5 years old? Do you take away its Champion title because it bloated?

    Another example would be hip displaysia, you could have 2 dogs that have excellent hip scores but produce a pup with HD, it is rare, but it certainly does happen. Does this breeder then get a bad mark next to their name for breeding a dog with HD?

    For diseases that are 100% testable and 100% preventable yes I agree that mandatory testing and storing of information would be great.
    BUT, does it need to be done with every single dog? I will be breeding my male Crested in the future, but I will not be paying for testing for PRA. I know he is clear by parentage. Both his parents are A rated, which means the only possible rating he can be is an A also.
    If I am forced to test just to send results off to a database naturally I would have to up the prices of the puppies to cover the extra fee I have had to pay, which in turn means it will become harder to sell the puppies, I have a rare breed, Powderpuff Cresteds are near impossible to sell as it is.
    There are many other problems the breed can get as well, but I have never heard of a dog getting them in Aus, let alone from the lines I have, do I have to test for all of them?

    As for Champions needing to be genetically healthy, again, I both agree and disagree. A champion dog does not need to be bred from.
    You could have a Rotti with a rare heart condition, it should not be bred from, but on the same token it is an absolutely beautiful example of the breed.
    Should it be denied the title of Champion? I don't think so.
    Should it not be bred from? Absolutely.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2009


    I have lots to add, but am really short on time. I hope to get some time over the weekend to add my thoughts on the matter.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  7. #7


    My two pure staffords are tested for all the diseases that we are able to test for at this stage... all dogs I have owned and bred over the past few years were tested for each test they were able to be tested for... every result has been clear... and yet my dogs are not champions... I can't speak for other breeds, but we stafford breeders who also show, police each other, I don't personally know anyone who does not test their dogs.. but there are many more diseases that cannot be tested for... I can't see how testing a dog once it becomes a champion is going to make any difference to anyone.. honest people will remain honest, dishonest people will remain dishonest that will never change..

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Southern NSW


    In A perfect world, where vets would not charge the earth everyone would get their dogs health checked........

    I know that I would before Breeding. I so far have had our male tested, both health and orthopedic. And our female is so far health tested, but I will wait with her orthopedic stuff until she is a little older.

    That said, some issues such as HD/elbows can be caused by how the dog has been raised. Both parents can be great and it can still happen. the same with bloat, it might be due to diet/exercise/volume, quality of food and or stress. And it could be hereditary.

    I am a firm believer in testing for cardiac (aortic stenosis, SAS) problems and cystinuria (?spelling), eyes (ectropian, endtropian, catartact) Thyroid problems and von Willibrands Dx in my particular breed. And a few others. But it is very expensive to do these Health tests and that might be why some do not do it.

    I am also a believer in having a Breed mentor...Someone who has been there and done that to improve the breed
    Last edited by newfsie; 07-22-2011 at 05:57 PM.
    Pets are forever

  9. #9


    i cant rester nugget becluse her dad is not a rester but her mum is it not fair
    If you are reading this then you're doing just fine as to
    I'm not going to tell ya I lost the ' , . ? ! " Keys to my head
    No grammar no problem I don't know how to fly it any way Bye

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Rural NSW


    Probably the bulk of the general public have no idea of possible health problems with the breed they selected to buy. If it is from championship lines then it is just tough luck if the breeder did not bother or wish to test?
    That confirmation to breed standard in appearance is all that mattered?

    Any posts made under the name of Di_dee1 one can be used by anyone as I do not give a rats.

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