Where Did the Packs Go?

**Fedra** · 02-05-2009, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by ericandmargie

You'll never see a pack leader wolf pepper his packmates with hugs and kisses and lets them jump all over him. If you don't assume this role - the dog will, even fearful ones would.

Oooooh, yes they will!!!! Have you ever study wolves? The way they act in packs? Do you know anything about wolves and the way they live, their position in a pack and how it happens? I guess not. So I will say it in a few words. Wolf pack acts like a big family, and wolves in a pack usually are related. The leaders are alpha male and alpha female. They mate for life, when and if one of them dies, other rarely finds another mate. They decide when to hunt, where to hunt, they of course eat first, and if having a litter female takes the best part with her for her litter. Of course there are fights in a pack, but there is a lot of affection, play and gentleness between members of a pack.

In the dog's world, the pack leader's command sould be obeyed without question or the pack doesn't survive.

Domestic dogs are NOT wolves, although they are genetically connected. Domestic dogs pack does NOT work the same way as wolf pack. They act different, have different ranks in a pack.... They are similar in some ways, but really quite different.

**ericandmargie** · 02-05-2009, 09:02 AM

A calm submissive dog is not a fearful dog. On the contrary this is a confident happy dog and this is their balanced state of mind. In a pack system, only few individuals can be a leader. So dogs are naturally submissive.
On the otherhand, pack leaders are calm, assertive and fair. You won't see a pack leader biting members each time he wants to be followed.
I did not say that you should never play with your dogs. Play and walks are essential in building your relationship. I play with my dogs everyday- but on my own terms and rules.
Dogs have instincts different from humans and mother nature hardwired these instincts long before humans started to speak English. If you start thinking about dogs in human terms, you will never understand dog behaviour.
I'm sorry Fedra, but I do think that your limitations about these matters is explained by the limitation of your vocabulary.
And Choppa--- , you can follow my blogs all across the net if you want but all animal behaviorist and trainers will tell you the same. If you do not want to accept these facts, go knock yourself out. Force your human ideas into your dog's brain or go hug a tree.

**ericandmargie** · 02-05-2009, 09:07 AM

This is exactly why people get bitten by dogs every year. I'm going to take a nap.

**ChoppaChop** · 02-05-2009, 10:41 AM

Well said Fedra!!

Ericandmargie.
Quite the confrontational one arn't we? What was it you had assumed of me ? Something to do with uncontrolled rage?

You have been given very clear , very valid points and you still choose to call us fools rather than concede that being 'pack leader' is not the whole truth and nothing but the truth ?

I know who will end up bitten

**ericandmargie** · 02-05-2009, 11:09 AM

Sleep it off. You'll feel better.

**ChoppaChop** · 02-05-2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by ericandmargie

Sleep it off. You'll feel better.

I cannot seem to find any of your 'blogs'

**ericandmargie** · 02-05-2009, 12:31 PM

Maybe because I'm using a different username(?). I wish I have the kind of time that you have really. I don't know how you do it.

**ERINAH** · 02-05-2009, 05:28 PM

This is getting crazy I feel like this is a grown up version of how my 2 and 4 year old behave when they are tierd and grumpy .
I thought this forum was to exchange info and help each other not to attack each other coz you have different views.
I dont appriciate to tone of trying to be Choppas alpha leader my way or the highway attitude and Im just a bistander.

Dont get me wrong Im happy for any help and discussion and enjoy a good argument but I dont like the tone of this and '3 yr old ' thread.
Lets see if I get put in time out for this one.

**ChoppaChop** · 02-05-2009, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by ERINAH

This is getting crazy I feel like this is a grown up version of how my 2 and 4 year old behave when they are tierd and grumpy .
I thought this forum was to exchange info and help each other not to attack each other coz you have different views.
I dont appriciate to tone of trying to be Choppas alpha leader my way or the highway attitude and Im just a bistander.

Dont get me wrong Im happy for any help and discussion and enjoy a good argument but I dont like the tone of this and '3 yr old ' thread.
Lets see if I get put in time out for this one.

My tone Erinah

**Fedra** · 02-05-2009, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by ericandmargie

A calm submissive dog is not a fearful dog.

Yeah, whatever. Don't you think you contradict yourself a bit? Dog does not have to be submissive to be calm and well balanced. There's a huge difference . Unless you mean submissive means that it listens to you unconditionally. You see, all my life I live with dogs. I feel free and very confident to say that I understand them more than people, although they do not speak. Just because few of us do not agree with you, doesn't mean we are dead wrong. I do not humanise my dogs. They are dogs and I respect them for being what they are. And how can someone on the other side of the line tell me that I am not their true leader when I know I am. I know it, I feel it, I live it every day all my life. There are many books written about dog behaviour, with some statements I agree, with some I don't. With this, I don't and it's my right to do or don't.

p.s. I have never been bitten and I have handled quite f**ked up dogs in my life.

So dogs are naturally submissive.

Ummm... no they're not. Some are, and some are not, it's individual.
There are dogs that are really easily handled, they look for their leader and they are happiest when they find it, but there are many that will try you out all the time trying to overtake your position. It the same as in packs. But remember, dog packs are not the same as wolf packs. You can't compare. Dog packs barely exist this days. I mean those dog packs that were created naturally, on the streets, not because we humans created them in shelters, our homes or elsewhere.

I play with my dogs everyday- but on my own terms and rules.

Well, of course it's on your terms and rules, I (or we) never said otherwise.

Dogs have instincts different from humans and mother nature hardwired these instincts long before humans started to speak English. If you start thinking about dogs in human terms, you will never understand dog behaviour.

Thanks for telling me that mate, I never new.