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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobcs View Post
    This is not always the case - sometimes you can do your homework, find what you think is a good breeder (and still believe to be a good breeder) but you still end up with a less then desirably genetically wired specimen. Things happen and you make the best of what you are dealt. Well at least that's my take on it. Although sure I would be foolish to think there haven't been more then a few rough patches were I didn't consider taking the easy option of sending her back to the breeder and finding myself a new dog but hmm only fleeting. I couldn't do it.

    Try going out specifically to purchase your next potential sports pup (obedience and agility are my hobbies) from a reputable breeder only to discover at the age of 16 weeks your potential up and coming sports mate is scared of the world despite all you have done - you have people telling you what she is doing isn't "normal" for a pup, she needs to go and see a vet behaviorist and maybe you should consider writing her off as a performance prospect and just having her as a pet. You tell yourself its a phase and it will resolve eventually - it never does. It just continues to worsen until she is so afraid that even a walk to your local park is stressful. You have a dog who regularly melts down around strangers and yet you still know deep down she has so much potential your not willing to quit.

    You make the decision to contact this fellow by the name of Steve (K9Pro) after all you have read on another forum but your still not 100% convinced, after all there is all this talk of "prong collars" on his website. You have a consult and decide to give the training in drive program a go.

    In just over 2 months your shy scardy dog who was suppose to be written off as a performance prospect finishes Runner up in the Novice Jumping Final of the State Agility Champs - barely half as second behind the winner. Not bad for a 400 midget dog who was never going to cut the mustard.
    S: with a lot of work from an owner who trains every day!

    7 months down the track - not only is the agility coming together well and you finish up the year with your Novice Jumping title with a lovely winning run 8 seconds ahead of the dog who finished second but you now also have a dog who doesn't melt down when there are strange people around (well least only half as much) and who can manage a stand for exam under a person who so badly spooked her at the age of 13 months she could barely function around this person.

    In fact this same dog can now regularly put together pretty decent Obedience patterns when previously she would have totally crumbled.

    We aren't finished yet but we are an awful lot closer to matching my end goals then we were this time last year. Sure she still requires more management then I would like and sure we still have our run of less then stunning days when it all gets to much but ah well she is here to teach me something and certainly has taught me sometimes it pays to be a little more open minded as to who might have something to offer by way of assistance. In actual fact I hazard to say I think she is probably ending up living a far better life as a performance dog/pet then she would ever have as just a pet.

    It also goes to show that times dogs aren't worth writing off just because they might require a little more effort to get going .

    Ooops this has probably gone way off topic for this thread but ah well.
    S: You make some great points 2BCS
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  2. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Getting back to the prong collar, the trainer I engaged did not use prong collars and nor did we need to. My dog had brilliant obedience skills. With her it was all about overcoming fear aggression and being able to funtion in public.
    S: And most dogs dont, I think that is where this post has run a little of factual course.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  3. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I guess that just goes to show - even K9pro/Steve has methods that work and don't require positive punishment.
    S: lol, I am not sure how I must have the rep of someone who uses corrections in all training, I think it would be accurate to say that corrections may be present in about 5 or so percent of my training programs.

    I do understand with certain dogs in certain circumstances in the hands of a very skilled trainer - they might be a useful tool but for me it would be a last resort - as Steve said -to save a dog that would otherwise need putting down for unmanageable aggresssion problems.
    S: Yep and be it that I am brought cases like this every day, it makes having an open mind and loads of methods at my disposal a necessity.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  4. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: lol, I am not sure how I must have the rep of someone who uses corrections in all training, I think it would be accurate to say that corrections may be present in about 5 or so percent of my training programs.
    Because Steve its all the behind the scenes brainwashing that goes on by the purely positive groups who suggest that anybody who even uses corrections 5% of the time is 5% too many and I guess that is the perception people tend to run with. The interesting thing I find is lots of people jump up in disgust at the mention of prong collars but they don't realize the damage that people can inadvertently cause with a check chain (or even a standard plain collar).

    Again its not about the "tool" its about the training.

  5. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: with a lot of work from an owner who trains every day!
    LOL but its not like a certain black and white dog would give me an option any other way eh. I don't seem to get much say as to how often I train ROFL.

  6. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobcs View Post
    Because Steve its all the behind the scenes brainwashing that goes on by the purely positive groups who suggest that anybody who even uses corrections 5% of the time is 5% too many and I guess that is the perception people tend to run with. The interesting thing I find is lots of people jump up in disgust at the mention of prong collars but they don't realize the damage that people can inadvertently cause with a check chain (or even a standard plain collar).

    Again its not about the "tool" its about the training.
    S: Gee so many things I could say lol...

    Anyway people call me all the time and ask me about what methods I use, I say well it really depends, so many say next "as long as it is not clicker training! it doesn't work!".

    Now I do use a clicker for some things and it does work, very well, but this goes to show what the public think of certain things...
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  7. #377

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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: Gee so many things I could say lol...

    Anyway people call me all the time and ask me about what methods I use, I say well it really depends, so many say next "as long as it is not clicker training! it doesn't work!".

    Now I do use a clicker for some things and it does work, very well, but this goes to show what the public think of certain things...
    Public perception of things is an interesting subject of an in itself - and perception can always be changed and modified if the recipient is open to it. I guess like anything the popularity of any one style of training goes in waves. Lots of people also fall into the trap of if its not broken don't fix it hence you get people who don't really modify or adapt to advances in training techniques and seem to be stuck in the dark ages. I guess a number of training clubs in the more traditional sense fall into this category - well least in my state they do.

    ETA. Least Steve you didn't respond with the most obvious answer ROFL.

  8. #378
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    I think, actually I have opted, for the no meal, instead of the constant criticism of what I chose. So that would be my preference.

    I think the dog would prefer to get a pop on the collar and eat dinner... Dinner is of course - a different matter to a treat. She would also prefer to eat dinner about five seconds before I put it down rather than waiting for a bit before being released to eat with permission, but she's willing to do that. It's resulted in a solid sit-stay with a tail wagging smiling dog which has surprised my dog club instructors.

    The thing about positive punishment - as Steve has suggested, is that the absolute minimum level of force/pressure be used, and to be absolutely consistent about observing behaviour and delivering consequence. I guess I like "escape training" slightly better because it is more forgiving for less skilled trainers, but again the tiniest amount of pressure to be applied. It's all way to easy to become abuse in the hands of someone who should know better. There is less risk in sticking with positive reinforcement/negative punishment (reward and no reward).

  9. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I think, actually I have opted, for the no meal, instead of the constant criticism of what I chose. So that would be my preference.
    S: So you see the meal is a short lived, instant aversive, the nagging as on going constant aversive.

    Sounds like fun at your mums place... lol
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  10. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobcs View Post
    Public perception of things is an interesting subject of an in itself - and perception can always be changed and modified if the recipient is open to it. I guess like anything the popularity of any one style of training goes in waves. Lots of people also fall into the trap of if its not broken don't fix it hence you get people who don't really modify or adapt to advances in training techniques and seem to be stuck in the dark ages. I guess a number of training clubs in the more traditional sense fall into this category - well least in my state they do.

    ETA. Least Steve you didn't respond with the most obvious answer ROFL.
    S: Everyone has their reasons for everything, it doesn't make them wrong just different to me I guess.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

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