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Thread: Sudden fights after 1+ year of peace! HELP!

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Rural Western Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    As to RAW.... it is not just feeding raw meat.... there are percentages of offal and also some fruit and veg involved. I have been feeding RAW since 1989.

    Simply put I feed 10-15% offal, 10% green tripe, 10% veggies with some fruit and the rest is muscle meat and raw fish
    I saw some great charts someone posted on facebook that really explained that in pictures. They had the percentages but also charted what parts are considered organ (secreting organ) and what is considered muscle meat. Apparently is is also important to have liver makeup 5% of the organ meat.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    I saw some great charts someone posted on facebook that really explained that in pictures. They had the percentages but also charted what parts are considered organ (secreting organ) and what is considered muscle meat. Apparently is is also important to have liver makeup 5% of the organ meat.
    Is this one of the ones you saw ?

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by RileyJ; 01-10-2017 at 09:57 AM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Southern NSW
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    3,704

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    Yes liver is a very important part and not too much kidney... I will only feed kidney at the most weekly, but liver daily. I find green tripe the most important and feed that daily if available. I have seen how good this feeding system has been, especially on my rescues with ortho issues.. Our harry had terrible flat feet and was extremely lame when we got him at 8 months. good feeding and all the swimming we do with him and lots of other exercise has made him quite sound. he has bad hips and elbows, but you would not know if you saw him at present... Feeding , especially in giants , makes a huge difference
    Pets are forever

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rural Western Australia
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    2,351

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    Quote Originally Posted by RileyJ View Post
    Is this one of the ones you saw ?

    I cant see the image

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    I cant see the image

    Oops - fixed it I hope !

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    10% green tripe
    Hi Newfsie,

    Where do you get your green tripe from?

    Try as I might I can never find any supplier willing to sell it even as a special order. bleached yes. That's what I feed mine but I'd rather give green.

    Pete.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    briguyman

    Just wondering if your crates are wire crates ie the dogs can see each other through the wire or windows? I would cover up everything except the door and make sure the crates are well separated - ideally so either dog can come and go without going too close to the other dog's crate. And that they can't see each other from inside their crates.
    They are, yes. I tried the coverup thing and then we eventually just moved one on the other side of the couch. I think it's helping, thanks! Both crates are often passed by the other dog just due to house space, there's nothing we can do about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    For now - if either dog starts something (gets a bit stiff or human guarding), I would put both in their respective crates, as fast and gently as you can. And if all humans can leave the room for 5 to 30 seconds that helps too ie remove the resources. Ie one dog starts trouble - all the fun stuff goes away for both dogs.
    We are trying this the next time it happens. Thanks Hyacinth, it's a really clever idea to remove the resource they're guarding. We didn't do that before - we comforted them both for a short while in their crates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    If a dog slangs (or stiff stare) at the other dog from their crate - I would cover up the slanging dog's view. As fast as you can.
    We are pretty sure Luna is slanging Tigga when she's in her crate. She only challenges him by staring when we are near, she knows we will restrain him, or when she's in her crate and even then I've only caught her doing it once or twice. I think this is the big cause of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    If you can manage this - while the dogs are doing their crate time - drop an occasional treat in for each that is being well behaved. Ie if they're being calm and well behaved - that dog gets a bit of kibble. (don't bother if that dog is asleep but be aware that kibble in the other crate might wake the sleeping dog up and if they're good - they get a bit too).
    I will do this too! Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    More mental brain training is a great idea.

    I would work primarily on games of impulse control. If the dog can show some impulse control in front of dinner or for kibble etc - it helps with impulse control in all things. But also practice in as many different set ups (places, positions etc) as you can. Bearing in mind - only change one thing between sessions.

    The main game I use for this is called "its yer choice"

    Don't try to build up duration, and distance in somewhere new all at once. Pick one thing and work on that.
    I didn't know this would help. We work on impulse training when feeding them, making them wait to eat their food until we allow it. I'll look up some games too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Another game to practice is "collar grab", pair that with treats. Start on lead, grab dog's collar, say dog's name, give it a treat. Let go, let dog's attention wander and repeat. Five repeats/treats.

    Most of my training sessions - I count out treats and when they're all gone - that training session is over and we have a play.

    for more info on reward based training (how to do it, why it works, why force fails)
    http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/11/14/susan-garrett/
    (check out all the links at the bottom)

    and #ItsYerChoice game
    http://dogsthatlisten.com/tim/
    Bookmarking! Thanks!

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Personally I think this could go either way, trying to artificially manipulate status, not a big fan. I run a team of working dogs, a mix of males and females, and to be quite honest if I tried to do that to my 2 males who have had issues with each other, I think it would just serve to escalate the situation. I have figured out a way to manage the situation quite satisfactorily by understanding the situations that lead to escalation, never leaving them alone together when I am away. Like yours it usually happens in my presence and they know now that I will not tolerate the behaviour. I treat them both equally and do not back up or favour one over the other. I train and work with them a lot so I have a very good working relationship with both of them so it is easy enough to handle the situation because they know me so well.
    I think you're right, but the problem is, we're starting to realize Luna only challenges him in consequence-free situations: from inside her cage, outside with a glass door between them, or when we're close as she knows we will hold him back. Their relationships has always been with him as the dominant, and incredibly strong dog, and her as the submissive. When it's just them inside the house, no humans near, she submits instantly. So I think this challenging has to be squashed, artificial or no. The natural order of the house is not with her as the big dog.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    One of them is a rescue who was beaten badly as a pup and he took a long time to feel secure and still suffers the emotional scars so for him it was about trying to resource guard me which led to the situation. I personally believe that their past does have very big influence on their behaviour and by understanding how this particular dog has been affected has helped manage the situation in my team. Same with several other working dogs that I have taken on to save them from less than desirable situations. They are different from the pups that I have raised from early on and I use this knowledge in how I train and manage them.
    We do too, we believe it's important to think about their pasts. Thanks for saying this. Tigga was beaten for barking and abandoned twice, and as a result he barely makes a peep now and is incredibly insecure, sometimes anxious. We think the situation with me traveling for a month has raised his anxiety past its breaking point, and he feels like he has to defend us from Luna for some reason. It has raised her fear aggression and anxiety too.

    What do your dogs do, what kind of working dogs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    I have spent a lot of time studying my dogs behaviour and training and working with them. I can generally catch a problem long before they are giving off obvious signs and I think this greatly helped with my 2 boys. There is rarely a scuffle these days because I know what they are thinking before they start thinking it lol.
    This may have to be our future. Before we didn't have to think twice about them starting problems, Tigga was SO patient with Luna and she was so full on, biting his face and such. But she isn't a puppy anymore and I've heard dogs aren't so patient when other dogs reach maturity. Maybe that's all this is. Tigga still hasn't caused her any damage whatsoever.

    Thanks for the input Kalacreek.

  9. #29

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    We use this as a guide. I know earlier I said we give them a chicken frame or two a week, but that's not the only raw meat they get. They also get dog mince (chicken for one and beef for the other, allergies) and tiny pieces of dried liver in each meal, as well as chicken hearts for the muscle percentage.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by RileyJ View Post
    To answer your comment below – ‘Kalacreek’, ‘Hyacinth’ and I live in Australia – like most on this forum !
    For a bit of useless statistical information – between the 3 of us we cover – because of where we live – 68.2% of Australia ! Impressed ? LOL – I thought you would be !

    So – Yes – You can take the kibble back to the store you bought it from for a refund and/or a credit. Though - It would usually be a credit.
    Good to know then! Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by RileyJ View Post
    You still seem to be so hell-bent on the idea of the Alpha/Dominance way of sorting things out !
    I guess so, from what I've read, dogs get significantly less anxious when their place in the social hierarchy is clear. Problems happen when dogs don't know where they stand, this seems pretty universally accepted. Also, it's not a manufactured thing with these two. When humans aren't nearby, and when Luna isn't protected by her cage or on the other side of a glass door, she's completely 100% submissive to Tigga and there are no problems. Just one minute ago, I watched Tigga walk by her, they're both about 3 meters away, and she submitted as he came near, and stayed belly up for a while. But when we're close, or she's in her cage or on the other side of the glass door, she knows she's protected, she knows she can challenge him without any consequences to her because Tigga can't get to her. So really, I want to solidify her place below him in the hierarchy to keep her from challenging him. I want to use hierarchy to discourage her shitty behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by RileyJ View Post
    Feeding a chicken frame once or twice a week – Does not equate to raw feeding your pups.
    When we're giving them the raw diet, the chicken frame is once or twice a week, the rest of the week they're on mostly mince, with a tiny bit of liver and a few chicken hearts thrown in. We're following guides.

    Quote Originally Posted by RileyJ View Post
    I feed my 2 a wide variety of different foods in their diet. I also feed twice per day – because my 2 could suffer from bloat – so I tend to be careful what I feed them. They get bones of some sort for breakfast – every day. Evening meal may consist of a mixture of : beef mince; liver; heart; kidneys; fish – mostly sardines, tuna, salmon and mullet when it is in season. They also get – a few times a week - vegetables, yoghurt, cheese and raw eggs (with the shell). As far as snacks – they love carrots, cored apples/pears and watermelon.
    Are your two deep chested and older? I'm reading about bloat, I thought it was mainly something to worry about if they've strained after exercise but today I read it can happen for no reason, or a subtle combination of things. Tigga loves raw fish more than anything on the Earth but I only recently learned that raw salmon is a huge no-no for dogs. I'd fed him a few pieces before I read that! Got lucky!

    Thanks for the help, bookmarked your links!!

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