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Thread: Sudden fights after 1+ year of peace! HELP!

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by briguyman View Post

    Question: I have been thinking about using methods to lower a dog's status, on Luna, such as leaving her outside slightly longer than Tigga, feeding her after him, things like that. What do you guys think about that? If I made her place in the family clear, being the lowest, some of you have said dogs are fine with that, it relaxes them as long as its clear.

    Okay individual responses now. Thanks everyone!!
    Personally I think this could go either way, trying to artificially manipulate status, not a big fan. I run a team of working dogs, a mix of males and females, and to be quite honest if I tried to do that to my 2 males who have had issues with each other, I think it would just serve to escalate the situation. I have figured out a way to manage the situation quite satisfactorily by understanding the situations that lead to escalation, never leaving them alone together when I am away. Like yours it usually happens in my presence and they know now that I will not tolerate the behaviour. I treat them both equally and do not back up or favour one over the other. I train and work with them a lot so I have a very good working relationship with both of them so it is easy enough to handle the situation because they know me so well.

    One of them is a rescue who was beaten badly as a pup and he took a long time to feel secure and still suffers the emotional scars so for him it was about trying to resource guard me which led to the situation. I personally believe that their past does have very big influence on their behaviour and by understanding how this particular dog has been affected has helped manage the situation in my team. Same with several other working dogs that I have taken on to save them from less than desirable situations. They are different from the pups that I have raised from early on and I use this knowledge in how I train and manage them.

    I have spent a lot of time studying my dogs behaviour and training and working with them. I can generally catch a problem long before they are giving off obvious signs and I think this greatly helped with my 2 boys. There is rarely a scuffle these days because I know what they are thinking before they start thinking it lol.

    Good luck with yours. Hard to give you specific advise other than with mine I have learn't to read them all like books, I understand what is driving their behaviour, I do a lot of individual training with them and establish a good working bond. They have a good understanding of how far they can push me. I do not play favourites, they are all crate trained, we have a feeding regime where I mix it up who I feed first and they wait their turn patiently and do not interfere with each other. I sub consciously scan their behaviour al the time and have learn't very much to know what they are going to do before they do. I dont have other people involved with them to contend with.

    Where I live it gets red hot in summer so I am up early to walk them and also late in the evening. Mine are on a mix of RAW and dry, I can't see why you just cant add a little bit of your kibble to their RAW and over time very slowly increase. We are talking a complete sudden change in diet as affecting their behaviour. I personally don't think that a diet of RAW vs a diet of good quality grain free kibble as long as they are introduced over time to allow their gut bacteria to adjust is going to be a major problem. Not in my own personal experience anyway with the teams of dog I have run over the last 30 years.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 01-08-2017 at 02:54 PM.

  2. #12
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    briguyman

    Just wondering if your crates are wire crates ie the dogs can see each other through the wire or windows? I would cover up everything except the door and make sure the crates are well separated - ideally so either dog can come and go without going too close to the other dog's crate. And that they can't see each other from inside their crates.

    If you cover up a crate with a sheet - you might have to put cardboard or ply in between to stop dog from pulling sheet into the crate and shredding it (my dog did this).

    For now - if either dog starts something (gets a bit stiff or human guarding), I would put both in their respective crates, as fast and gently as you can. And if all humans can leave the room for 5 to 30 seconds that helps too ie remove the resources. Ie one dog starts trouble - all the fun stuff goes away for both dogs.

    If a dog slangs (or stiff stare) at the other dog from their crate - I would cover up the slanging dog's view. As fast as you can.

    If you can manage this - while the dogs are doing their crate time - drop an occasional treat in for each that is being well behaved. Ie if they're being calm and well behaved - that dog gets a bit of kibble. (don't bother if that dog is asleep but be aware that kibble in the other crate might wake the sleeping dog up and if they're good - they get a bit too).

    More mental brain training is a great idea.

    I would work primarily on games of impulse control. If the dog can show some impulse control in front of dinner or for kibble etc - it helps with impulse control in all things. But also practice in as many different set ups (places, positions etc) as you can. Bearing in mind - only change one thing between sessions.

    The main game I use for this is called "its yer choice"

    Don't try to build up duration, and distance in somewhere new all at once. Pick one thing and work on that.

    Puppies (Lira) often pester older dogs (or humans) for attention. Just make sure Tigga gets some alone time for himself without being pestered. And good dog in crate gets treats.

    One thing my favourite trainer (Susan Garrett) does when she's training two dogs or introducing a puppy to an older grumpy dog... is that she will train the puppy - over here, and toss good things to grumpy dog over there (for staying over there). If there's two of you (humans) you can work this together, one human trains puppy, the other human dispenses treats to grumpy dog for remaining calm and in control.

    Dogs do copy - each other and their humans. So if you're scolding, the dogs will do that too (to each other and maybe to you). I've seen the same thing happen with parents and their children - frightening how fast that happens (that the child learns to scold their sibling from their parent). I often had to tell my niece that she is not the policeman here.

    Another game to practice is "collar grab", pair that with treats. Start on lead, grab dog's collar, say dog's name, give it a treat. Let go, let dog's attention wander and repeat. Five repeats/treats.

    Most of my training sessions - I count out treats and when they're all gone - that training session is over and we have a play.

    for more info on reward based training (how to do it, why it works, why force fails)
    http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/11/14/susan-garrett/
    (check out all the links at the bottom)

    and #ItsYerChoice game
    http://dogsthatlisten.com/tim/

    For your behaviourist - some video of what your dogs do would be helpful ie start video when dogs are out of the shared space, let dogs in. Then send a human in...

    And beware of back chaining - ie rewarding the chain of naughty dog then nice dog gets treat, but nice dog thinks it needs to be naughty first... Best thing to do here, is lower the value of the reward (for my dog: pats only, no food) but also increase the time the dog is required to be nice before treat.

  3. #13

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    To answer your comment below – ‘Kalacreek’, ‘Hyacinth’ and I live in Australia – like most on this forum !
    For a bit of useless statistical information – between the 3 of us we cover – because of where we live – 68.2% of Australia ! Impressed ? LOL – I thought you would be !

    So – Yes – You can take the kibble back to the store you bought it from for a refund and/or a credit. Though - It would usually be a credit.

    I don't think we can return the kibble here, in Australia.
    You still seem to be so hell-bent on the idea of the Alpha/Dominance way of sorting things out !

    Question: I have been thinking about using methods to lower a dog's status, on Luna, such as leaving her outside slightly longer than Tigga, feeding her after him, things like that. What do you guys think about that? If I made her place in the family clear, being the lowest, some of you have said dogs are fine with that, it relaxes them as long as its clear.
    My question to you is – How would the ‘Ladies’ in your life react to this type of treatment to one of them or all of them ?

    Relationships are built on trust – not domination and manipulation !

    We are currently feeding them a small handful of kibble and a half/whole chicken frame. I'm going by the butcher today to get some more chicken mince, and soon it'll be that, with a chicken frame once or twice a week.
    Feeding a chicken frame once or twice a week – Does not equate to raw feeding your pups.

    I feed my 2 a wide variety of different foods in their diet. I also feed twice per day – because my 2 could suffer from bloat – so I tend to be careful what I feed them. They get bones of some sort for breakfast – every day. Evening meal may consist of a mixture of : beef mince; liver; heart; kidneys; fish – mostly sardines, tuna, salmon and mullet when it is in season. They also get – a few times a week - vegetables, yoghurt, cheese and raw eggs (with the shell). As far as snacks – they love carrots, cored apples/pears and watermelon.

    A link for different types of bones to feed. Have a good around this web site and see what you think.

    http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/feeding-raw-bones/

    Also - Have you had a look around other threads on this forum ? Maybe this next link is worth you having a look at it ?

    http://www.dogforum.com.au/showthread.php?t=12426

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RileyJ View Post
    Feeding a chicken frame once or twice a week – Does not equate to raw feeding your pups.

    I feed my 2 a wide variety of different foods in their diet. I also feed twice per day – because my 2 could suffer from bloat – so I tend to be careful what I feed them. They get bones of some sort for breakfast – every day. Evening meal may consist of a mixture of : beef mince; liver; heart; kidneys; fish – mostly sardines, tuna, salmon and mullet when it is in season. They also get – a few times a week - vegetables, yoghurt, cheese and raw eggs (with the shell). As far as snacks – they love carrots, cored apples/pears and watermelon.

    A link for different types of bones to feed. Have a good around this web site and see what you think.

    http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/feeding-raw-bones/

    Also - Have you had a look around other threads on this forum ? Maybe this next link is worth you having a look at it ?

    http://www.dogforum.com.au/showthread.php?t=12426
    Yes if you are going to feed RAW you really need to do your research so that your dogs get a balanced diet which is why I lean towards high quality grain free kibble as a staple as it fits in with my schedule best. I do feed RAW once or twice a week and I puree orange an green vegies, add sardines, yoghurt, eggs, heart, liver, human grade beef mince or Roo mince and I also sometimes buy commercial RAW patties. I also feed raw bones once a week. I also feed them chopped up apples and carrots to munch on. Make sure you understand the foods that are not good for them like grapes and their derivatives, vegies from the onion family etc.

    I also feed twice a day and although my breeds are not prone to bloat and I never feed them directly before or after exercise.

    I also don't subscribe to the alpha theory. I believe in good training and developing trust and understanding. I still have rules but my dogs understand them and me as being fair and I reinforce good behaviour heavily so it tends to becomes their default.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 01-08-2017 at 09:50 PM.

  5. #15
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    On the subject of raw diets; If you're clever about it it's actually cheaper than store bought kibble and canned food. Just need to foster a good relationship with local butchers and you're set!

    Remember aswell dogs like all of us like a variety. Imagine eating the same old fried sausage dinner every night. You'd get restless too.

    Without knowing ALL the details and being able to see it for myself I'd agree that the sudden shock and change to routine has lead to this. Get things back to the way they were and you'll be all be fine. Really important that all humans are on the same wave length and singing the same song too. This about this ... Kids screaming and laughing and carrying on, Mum: "I've told you kids not to play with balls in the house!" Kids: "But DAD let's us!" Mum; "I don't care what Dad says; I'm telling you not to" Dad "Oh crap ... I told you kids not to tell your mother!" Dad: "I know, I know dear, I'm sleeping on the couch tonight"

    Pete.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihatewetsocks View Post

    Remember aswell dogs like all of us like a variety. Imagine eating the same old fried sausage dinner every night. You'd get restless too.


    Pete.
    Haha you haven't met my cattle dogs, they would very happily eat the same old fried sausage dinner every night. My lot couldn't care less about variety in fact one of my Border collies will only eat one brand of grain free and I have a battle to get her to eat my RAW concoction, she hates the added vegies lol and is highly suspicious of sardines, thinks that I am out to poison her, much prefers her fav brand of kibble which is Ivory coat kangaroo and lamb grain free.

  7. #17
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    Kalacreek;

    At least you have it easy then! no need to think of new recipes to keep them happy. Unfortunately Truffle has a sensitive stomach. I ran out of raw one day a few weeks ago and didn't remember until very late once the shops were shut. I had to buy a can of Pal from the servo. She ate it alright. Hoovered it up BUT sprayed it back out the other end around 20 minutes later! Apparently it didn't agree with her. Never have that problem on raw ...

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihatewetsocks View Post
    Kalacreek;

    At least you have it easy then! no need to think of new recipes to keep them happy. Unfortunately Truffle has a sensitive stomach. I ran out of raw one day a few weeks ago and didn't remember until very late once the shops were shut. I had to buy a can of Pal from the servo. She ate it alright. Hoovered it up BUT sprayed it back out the other end around 20 minutes later! Apparently it didn't agree with her. Never have that problem on raw ...
    I haven't fed Pal for a very long time so not sure what effect it would have on my lot!. Yeah mine all have cast iron stomachs and are very easy to please. I do stick to good quality food though. I also mind the fat content for one of them as she seems sensitive to that so she gets Ivory coat fat reduced grain free turkey and my RAW concoction.

  9. #19
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    interesting reading all of this

    I would also look into anxiety levels of both dogs.... and really the alpha system has long been proven futile... even in the wild in wild dog groups and even wolves it has now been shown in the newer up tto date systems that the packs that do the best actually work together with a good leader not a bully. So many of the previous studies were from the 50's and 60's

    I also recommend some study in dog language like Turid Rugaas and getting in a good behaviour trainer and or behaviourist vet. Often dog fights are escalated by the people screaming at the dogs...we should not join the fight just stop it and be quiet. I specialis in difficult dog aggressive rescues and rehab them. most of the time it is the reaction of the people that is the cause. hence it happens more in the house. you may even have pre-set the problem. it is why I want to see problem dogs in their homes with their Family and I do not partake at all on the first visit, I just observe. All hard to do from behind a keyboard, so I think you need to find someone who will see your dogs at home.

    You cannot interfere with how dogs see each other , if you have multiple dogs like my pack at hoem, they just sort that themselves. Nothing I do can change how they think of each other. I can only be a good Leader to tem, who they want to follow and respect... the respect is gained with training and doing a lot of stuff together not being their Alpha... I think lack of doing things with dogs is often the problem. Dogs need to be kept busy, be it with training or fun stuff too.

    Go and see someone who is familiar with dog behaviour.....
    Pets are forever

  10. #20
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    As to RAW.... it is not just feeding raw meat.... there are percentages of offal and also some fruit and veg involved. I have been feeding RAW since 1989.

    Simply put I feed 10-15% offal, 10% green tripe, 10% veggies with some fruit and the rest is muscle meat and raw fish
    Pets are forever

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