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Thread: mutts and bitzas vs pedigree dogs, responsible breeding

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    "But outside of working dogs, I fail to see any good reason for breeding non-ANKC registered dogs."

    come on, you are not that naïve, some reasons;

    no health testing required

    no micro-chipping

    no vax

    no temp testing

    no documented ped

    .......

    all = more profit + less effort + no accountability


    sheesh.
    But this is where discussion of of good practice comes in. There are expectaions we have for breeders. Most of them are actualy universal expectaions, they just don't get discussed because every ones too busy labeling the type of breeders according their WORST practices. Good practice isn't up for discussion because every one thinks they are in a "unique " group. Before we can change practices, we have to agreee on them. Expectation has to come before change and if no one agrees on common , basic expectations all we can do is attack those not meeting our own.

    As long as the K.Cs see them selves as seperate from all other dog lovers, we WILL be divided on expectations. Division is written into the constitution and will divide us untill its unwritten.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by mymatejack View Post
    I would suggest you articulate one of the only reasons for breeding outside of the ANKC - and I have no problem with that. But outside of working dogs, I fail to see any good reason for breeding non-ANKC registered dogs.

    ETA : There was someone here several months ago who was looking to breed their dog cause their dog was awesome and they reckoned they could breed another one similar. Of course this person didn't realise it would take several decades and many useless(probably euthed pups) to get anywhere. Even worse, some of the rescue brigade here were actually supportive of this ... the mind boggles!
    If every one breeds for a purpose and becomes aware of the need for that, in a way, they are breeding working dogs. Who should decides what purpose is worthy or considered "work"?

    If there s a demand for the resulting dogs, that suits their drives and temperament so that pups can expect to find appreciative homes where they are valued for what they bring, sought after, isn't that what brings people to value dogs ? And when you see a value to having some thing, you tend to appreciate it more and take responsibility to keep getting the best you can from it.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 04-18-2015 at 07:04 PM.

  3. #53
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    MMJ

    You don't need to be registered with the ANKC to have a personal code of ethics, follow best practice with breeding eg minimum age for bitch with first litter and spreading the litters out by a year and a half and no more litters after 8 years old (or younger for some breeds)

    You don't have to be ANKC registered to do health testing, microchip, vaccinate, worm, temperament testing and keeping breeding line records.

    Your average farmer does that with their herds. Maybe not their dogs. But some do.

    Yes it's more profitable to breed for cute puppies and cut all the health stuff, microchipping, but that's not a "good" reason to do it and in some states - it's illegal.

    The trouble is - we need a more united front on what is and isn't good breeding practice. At least the simple enforceable things are starting to be made law - even if they're not enforced and the public is not sufficiently well educated. Eg puppies must be 8 weeks old before removing from their litter and microchipped and vaccinated (and not the homeopathic sort).

  4. #54

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    I think you guys are assuming a lot about the average person who buys a puppy.

    ime people put more research into buying a refrigerator than a living being they will have for possibly 10 or more years.


    the main criteria is see amongst dog purchasers are;

    easy to stumble across

    breeder is a good talker

    cheap

    close to where they live

    cute

    possibly flashy breeder website

    I think more effort had to be put into accountability of the buyer, by market law breeders will change to suit.

    it is only AFTER the pup gets home and problems start that buyers ask questions and realise the horror of what they have done, then they join a forum make a few desperate emotional posts get aa scolding and disappear and most likely get rid of the dog and do the same again.

    jmo.
    Last edited by muttboy; 04-19-2015 at 08:46 AM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    I wish more people did! Personaly, I chose to stick to a working version and forget the pedigree after giving pedigrees a fair go. I figured no matter what I do, any breed that has declined so much in so short a time that the pedigree version was not fit for its purpose temperamentaly or health wise, my drop in the ocean wasn't going to bring them back. Purpose needs to be a focus 1st before any improvement there will be recognised.

    The testing required to breed healthy dogs under the current system can only increase while available lines decrease. We create a situation where breeding a pedigree dog can only become more and more a specialised field, complicated by the need to understand what to avoid before you can begin to think of what you want to bring to a mating. And fewer able to understand the complexities of a breed.

    Muttboy,

    RE; The links to old type G.S.D, Yeah, that basic build on the sheperd is what I like to see on any dog I choose, be it a terrier or giant. It can be heavier or hairier but seems the type favoured by natural selection.
    Personally I think pedigrees are important. My working dogs all have pedigrees. They are not just present in the realm of the showbred dog. My working dogs pedigrees document their lines. For a stockman knowledgeable with working lines it will give him or her vital information on what they might expect workwise, herding trait wise and healthwise from a particular dog. Different working breeders will use specific lines depending on what type of dog they are breeding for and what traits are important. Round here most farmers muster with motorbikes so mainly they are most interested in yardy lines and local breeders know this and will focus on well known yard lines in their programs. There are different environments and requirements for working dogs and good records of a dogs lineage is very important in a breeding program.

    In terms of breeding ANKC breeds to a physical standard, this is where common sense with certain breeds (not all) has gone out the window. I cant understand why extreme versions become fashionable in the showring. Good sense dictates that a dog shoudnt be hampered by its physical structure. I dont get the obsession with dogs that can hardly breathe, give birth naturally or have structures that predispose them to painful medical conditions down the track.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Here is an interesting take on the Border collie and kelpie as a breed from a breeder of renowned working dogs Tully Williams.

    Scroll down to "Border collies or not"

    Campaspe Working Dogs

    I thought it was a very interesting perspective and one that makes perfect sense to me anyway.

    I do not know toomuch about BC's but I can totally see the point of view that the now bred show dogs are useless as working dogs.this hs not so much happened with the kelpies.they pretty much can work in the paddock one day and do quite well in the show ring the next. I think it is a shame that the standards of any dog breed change to conform to Judges on the day...I think we should stick with the old standards and that means tht crtain dogs if not at least working should be able to, at least by visual conformation.......the GSD is a very sad case in its history and at one stage was almost bred to be a cripple...Luckily some moves are now made to rectify that and I have noticed the "stance" is improving in general. We should never breed to lessen standards.......i will always hope that the breeds keep the abilities they were bred for.

    I will search a long way to find good traits of working in any breed I want, be it Newfoundland, GSD or kelpie...kelpie is definitly easier. Not too many people have gotten involved and wrecked the satndard and still quite a few people who work their kelpies on stations are still showing them too.grea for the breed and doing well

    Finding working water dog lines in Newfoundlands in Austrlia is pretty tough and you have to go the Canadian lines and or European lines as the USA lines are just bred for Floof, lots of it and looking pretty..............
    Pets are forever

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    I do not know toomuch about BC's but I can totally see the point of view that the now bred show dogs are useless as working dogs.this hs not so much happened with the kelpies.they pretty much can work in the paddock one day and do quite well in the show ring the next. I think it is a shame that the standards of any dog breed change to conform to Judges on the day...I think we should stick with the old standards and that means tht crtain dogs if not at least working should be able to, at least by visual conformation.......the GSD is a very sad case in its history and at one stage was almost bred to be a cripple...Luckily some moves are now made to rectify that and I have noticed the "stance" is improving in general. We should never breed to lessen standards.......i will always hope that the breeds keep the abilities they were bred for.

    I will search a long way to find good traits of working in any breed I want, be it Newfoundland, GSD or kelpie...kelpie is definitly easier. Not too many people have gotten involved and wrecked the satndard and still quite a few people who work their kelpies on stations are still showing them too.grea for the breed and doing well

    Finding working water dog lines in Newfoundlands in Austrlia is pretty tough and you have to go the Canadian lines and or European lines as the USA lines are just bred for Floof, lots of it and looking pretty..............
    I think what I have a problem with is the standardised physical aspect that is set by the ANKC. Working Border collies are very diverse in appearance wheras show Border collies from what I see are very ****genous to look at and I dont think that their body type and certainly not their heavy coats would suit many working situations. I have only seen a few show kelpies and over here as far as I know, they are not used as commercial working dogs. My own working kelpie just looks leaner and more athletic in comparison. I can believe though that they could still be suitable as working dogs if bred on commercial farms. That just doesnt happen here as far as I know.

    You just have to look at Koolies, a breed not recognised by the ANKC and they are incredibly diverse in physical looks, a bit like working Border collies. Some people have even developed their own working strains of Koolies. Goodness knows what physical standard would be set. The prettiest I expect.

    I guess in most cases over here the commercial working and show world very rarely cross paths when it comes to sheep dog breeds. That suits me fine really.

    The show breeders I know of Border collies and kelpies are fairly responsible when it comes to health etc, I just wouldnt find any of their dogs suitable for my needs. I would just go to a working breeder.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Personally I think pedigrees are important. My working dogs all have pedigrees. They are not just present in the realm of the showbred dog. My working dogs pedigrees document their lines. For a stockman knowledgeable with working lines it will give him or her vital information on what they might expect workwise, herding trait wise and healthwise from a particular dog. Different working breeders will use specific lines depending on what type of dog they are breeding for and what traits are important. Round here most farmers muster with motorbikes so mainly they are most interested in yardy lines and local breeders know this and will focus on well known yard lines in their programs. There are different environments and requirements for working dogs and good records of a dogs lineage is very important in a breeding program.

    In terms of breeding ANKC breeds to a physical standard, this is where common sense with certain breeds (not all) has gone out the window. I cant understand why extreme versions become fashionable in the showring. Good sense dictates that a dog shoudnt be hampered by its physical structure. I dont get the obsession with dogs that can hardly breathe, give birth naturally or have structures that predispose them to painful medical conditions down the track.
    I think pedigrees are important too.... I don't think a certificate of authenticity is the same thing.
    To me, a pedigree is the history and purpose behind the dog. It can assist to tell you if the dogs breeding is something that might add or detract from what you expect from the dog or its progeny. If history is unknown, it doesn't mean the dog has nothing to offer. Simply that you have a lot less knowledge to guide you .

    The show ring is the accepted testing environment for ANKC pedigree dogs. None other.They are tested and selected for type only So it should be no suprise if they fail at any other criteria. Same sort of thing as selecting working dogs from trials only. Only the the environment these dogs are to live and work in can be an effective selection tool for their success IN that environment. Be it pet or work.

    ANKC teaches that type and predictability is what leads to improvement of the species. Then wonder when designer dogs are so popular, or the buyers of a lab. are upset when the dog bites a child ( because they are sup0posed to be predictably good natured)

    WKC breeders generaly understand the purpose they expect the dog to fill, and that their working environment is not the same as the next. Predictability is not a requirment, reliability is. Reliability comes only with environmental testing and environments are not all the same even for one purpose, so variety is not a bad thing.

    One of the problems I have with sourcing dogs from ANKC breeders is that I can't even be sure most of them understand what they have and are working with enough that I can trust their advise. If they have 15 dogs, that are often locked in kennels or crates with limmited time interacting with other dogs and the family, how can they know their pups will suit MY conditions that are vastly different and highly stimulating?

    If they breed for the show ring, how are they to understand what qualities I need and will they even recognise them? It seems more often they don't.

    Oh, and I liked the comment on the link where the breeder says he believes a working dog, properly bred and selected for a suitable environment, should need very little training. A dog bred for a purpose should slot into that role easily.
    Understanding drives is great. Its a way to help understand the best ways to train the dog in front of you, or to select complimentary traits. But I DON'T think selecting on the basis of drives alone brings better reliability. Predictability for trial situations maybe. Environmental selection is the only way to acheive reliability and the ability to respond appropriately to environmental variability.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 04-25-2015 at 10:01 AM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    I think pedigrees are important too.... I don't think a certificate of authenticity is the same thing.
    To me, a pedigree is the history and purpose behind the dog. It can assist to tell you if the dogs breeding is something that might add or detract from what you expect from the dog or its progeny. If history is unknown, it doesn't mean the dog has nothing to offer. Simply that you have a lot less knowledge to guide you .

    The show ring is the accepted testing environment for ANKC pedigree dogs. None other.They are tested and selected for type only So it should be no suprise if they fail at any other criteria. Same sort of thing as selecting working dogs from trials only. Only the the environment these dogs are to live and work in can be an effective selection tool for their success IN that environment. Be it pet or work.

    ANKC teaches that type and predictability is what leads to improvement of the species. Then wonder when designer dogs are so popular, or the buyers of a lab. are upset when the dog bites a child ( because they are sup0posed to be predictably good natured)

    WKC breeders generaly understand the purpose they expect the dog to fill, and that their working environment is not the same as the next. Predictability is not a requirment, reliability is. Reliability comes only with environmental testing and environments are not all the same even for one purpose, so variety is not a bad thing.

    One of the problems I have with sourcing dogs from ANKC breeders is that I can't even be sure most of them understand what they have and are working with enough that I can trust their advise. If they have 15 dogs, that are often locked in kennels or crates with limmited time interacting with other dogs and the family, how can they know their pups will suit MY conditions that are vastly different and highly stimulating?

    If they breed for the show ring, how are they to understand what qualities I need and will they even recognise them? It seems more often they don't.

    Oh, and I liked the comment on the link where the breeder says he believes a working dog, properly bred and selected for a suitable environment, should need very little training. A dog bred for a purpose should slot into that role easily.
    Understanding drives is great. Its a way to help understand the best ways to train the dog in front of you, or to select complimentary traits. But I DON'T think selecting on the basis of drives alone brings better reliability. Predictability for trial situations maybe. Environmental selection is the only way to acheive reliability and the ability to respond appropriately to environmental variability.
    What is a certificate of authenticity? The pedigree of my working Border collie goes back many generations. He is a mix of Australian working lines with some very old bloodlines like Moorlands and Cavanaghs and Imported UK working lines. I can see Welsh and International Supreme herding champions in the UK branch with all their names and registration numbers listed. In fact every ancestor in his pedigree are listed with their registration numbers. His pedigree is just as if not more more detailed than any of my showline dogs.

    I think that predictability is very important in working lines. People will pay a lot of money for dogs whose lines are predictors of what key traits they may have. Different working environments may require ifferent key traits. For example mustering scattered sheep in the high country would require good casting dogs with a blind searching cast. This may not be of key importance to a farmer who only uses his dogs in the yard where backing and other traits may be more important. Many working dogs probably meet a premature end because not enough attention was paid to what their bloodlines were telling about what you might expect from them.

    I know a farmer dissapointed about his dog not being a good paddock dog. I asked him where he got his dog from. When he told me it was easy know why, the breeder specialises in yardy types dogs because that is what people in this area seem to like. I know these dogs dont have a good cast. My BC comes from big casting lines and sure enough he is a big casting dog with a classic shaped cast. I didnt need to teach him, it was just there, written in his lines. The breeder also told me that his line nips at a specific part of the sheeps hock and sure enough he does exactly this.

    ANKC breeders can be responsible. I know several showline BC breeders. They raise the puppies in the house, socialise them well and are very particular about where they go. They generaling look for homes who are going to be active and preferably do dog sports. Sure they are primarily bred to a physical standard but they also are aware which mating may produce a good sport dog or a smart active pet with a good temperament. They are rigourous in their health testing as well and follow the progress of their pups and will rehome if they come back to them for whatever reason.

    It comes down to knowing what you want and then going out and connecting with a breeder. Unfortunately this takes experience and sometimes previous bad experiences.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 04-25-2015 at 03:50 PM.

  10. #60

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    Kalacreek,

    To me, ANKC pedigrees are more like a certificate of authenticity than anything truely usefull for all the information that can be recovered through their use.Ask a breeder of a traditional working breed, bred for show what the grandparents traits for work were like, or the temperament in stressful new situations.Were they good with stock. How long were they fit to work. How athletic. Any dogs in there that didn't like kids.

    An open working registry thats united under a common, highly appreciated purpose is not the same thing. If a breeder appreciates what a well bred dog is capable of, he will try to maximize that. Word of mouth is his best advertisement, and seeing his dogs in action.Stories will be told. His success as a breeder depends on him breeding dogs that bring value.

    By breeding for purpose 1st, there IS an environmental influence. Automaticaly. Its environmental demand that shapes the result. The range of abilities you describe are not predictions of how the dog will behave in a given situation. Not when you allow for the whole range of working environments you just described. Thats not predict-ability. Its Reliabil-ity.To do the job in a range of environments. Predicability is a poorly made washing machine that stuffs up a month after warrenty lapses. Reliability is one thats still doing the job 25 years later

    When you do predictability, thats when lines close more and more. Because you can't improve on predictability. You can only make it more predictable, by ruling out options, you rule out response-ability.

    I have experience. I know what I want. Connecting to ANKC breeders on the scale required to find what I want, reliably, is a life time committment of research and travel, phone bills, and waiting to see. Changes in breeders, goals and who is breeding, with what. And most of the dogs have never been tested in the type of environment I provide. Most of the breeders have no idea if their dogs are suited to this and will reliably work, or even what that means, or how to tell.
    ANKC are Not breeding for environmental needs. They are not breeding for MY needs. They breed for ANKC and blame the customers lack of research for problems. And tell me I'm lucky to get a pup at all so its all worth it. Only it never has been.

    I don't have 2 years to wait on a possible suitable mating.

    I do, however have unpapered dogs proven in my own backyard. That I know intimately through several generations. They are sought after by others with the same requirements . Waiting lists for the pups and adult dogs that might need re-homing. They are well socialised in a family environment with other animals, noise and life. And they are companion /workers. They are not kept for breeding, tho' they might be bred to keep.

    Yes, there are good ANKC breeders. Many of them working hard where I won't go. Its not the breeders in any group I have a problem with. Its the purpose of the organization that binds them thats the problem. The ANKCs constitution sets out that purpose : To breed for improvement .

    But in ruling that no K.C breeder should breed any any dog ineligible for registration, the rider is that dogs belong in the K.C registry, not outside of it. No enviroinmental influence. We are preserving an illussion of whats gone before, not allowing it to evolve or to respond to changing environmental demands.

    The flaw is in the constitution that binds the members, not the breeders themselves who mostly DO have the best of intentions and believe in what they are doing.
    The flaw is such that that it makes domestic dog breeding unsustainable from a biological perspective and I can not support that.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 04-25-2015 at 07:58 PM.

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