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Thread: We All Love to Share Pet Shop Puppy Prices...

  1. #21

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    I pay what you guys would call beyond huge amounts for a GOOD dog with ongoing breeder support. So what is a good dog to me????
    1. Both parents have had breed relevent health testing & passed.
    2. A dog/pup that has been raised in an approate enviroment for what I want the dog for.
    3. That the breeder is willing to help out with info & training tips etc
    4. That the breeder sells with a never to be sold on contract meaning dog returns to
    the breeder if anything ever happened to me. This tells me the breeder cares & has put
    alot of thought into what they breed

    Of course the pup, any dogs on premisis must look healthy & happy & living conditions must be of a good standard.
    I would not buy without visiting the kennel & have traveled Aus wide visiting different kennels.
    Dogs make everyday life enjoyable...........

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    I agree completely, but that doesn't necessarily rule out cross breeders.

    I know of someone who breeds borders with sibes, I am not sure of the purpose for this breeding but I have heard the reason. Anyway, the point is, all of this persons dogs are health tested prior to breeding and only dogs that compliment each other are bred. They charge a hefty sum for the resultant offspring and I have absolutely no problem with that.
    .
    I agree with the responsible breeder side of things. I dont entirely agree with the concept of breeding Borders with Sibes. The resultant litter would could be a rainbow of genetic combinations each time you breed, so it would be difficult to be breeding for a particular reason in one generation. It is not like developing a new breed and working towards a set of charateristics and it would be taking a punt on how each pair will compliment each other.

    A BC is a purpose bred dog and has a wide range of specific charateristics that come in many different strengths in each dog. Even breeding for a good working dog takes an enormous amount of evaluation and working of each parent to get the right combination and to understand the characteristics of each dog - too much eye, too little force, not wide casting, no push, good cover and block etc. It would be virtually impossible for a breeder like you are describing to be breeding for a specific reason given the huge amount of variation in a working BC.

    Maybe breeding from a showbred BC might be more h-o-mogenous but they are bred specifically for their looks. But a working BC -no

    To me as a long term entusiast of the BC and knowing a number of people who breed BCs it sounds like a lot of hype to make big bucks.

    The well bred working BC is a work of art and has no place being crossed with anything other than perhaps another working breed like a Kelpie etc. where breed characteristics are similar and they are being bred for a distinct purpose based on rigourously evaluated charateristics. There you go - my rant for the day.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 01-15-2011 at 10:17 AM.

  3. #23

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    There's a sign at our local pet shop stating "responsible" people buy from pet shops

  4. #24
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    Agree 100% with CD, excellent post.

    Kalacreek, totally understand and even agree with what you are saying. I cannot for the life of me think of the reason for the choice of cross but something to do with agility is coming to mind, could be wrong.

    I should also probably say, I believe this person is not just using first generation crosses. They have a complete breeding program where the resultant offspring that meet the requirements (or standard they have set themselves) are used for breeding providing they pass health checks. I am under the impression that this person is not just crossing a border with a sibe but is using multigenerational crosses in order to create a "breed" standard. I don't think they are there yet but in saying that I don't really know much about the person, only what has been passed on to me.

    But, if the above is true and this person is health checking etc, then I really have no problem with it, nor with them putting a high price on the pups.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    Agree 100% with CD, excellent post.

    Kalacreek, totally understand and even agree with what you are saying. I cannot for the life of me think of the reason for the choice of cross but something to do with agility is coming to mind, could be wrong.

    I should also probably say, I believe this person is not just using first generation crosses. They have a complete breeding program where the resultant offspring that meet the requirements (or standard they have set themselves) are used for breeding providing they pass health checks. I am under the impression that this person is not just crossing a border with a sibe but is using multigenerational crosses in order to create a "breed" standard. I don't think they are there yet but in saying that I don't really know much about the person, only what has been passed on to me.

    But, if the above is true and this person is health checking etc, then I really have no problem with it, nor with them putting a high price on the pups.
    Lala, a working bred BC probably makes the best agility dog in the world. I have been to courses run by the top international agility handlers in the world and guess what - the majority of them have working bred Border collies. Biddable, high drive, high intelligence what more do you want. The total package is there already.

    To add a Sibe into the mix is totally perplexing. No top agility handler I know and I know a lot of them would be or is going down that path.

    If they are setting standards, they will be testing them - never seen that mix in the top echelons of Australian agility!

    I can pay $450 for a working bred BC whose close reletives are bristling with national agility titles. My current BC is one of those added to the fact his sire is from imported UK lines with international herding champions in the mix.

    Some people have more money than sense
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 01-15-2011 at 03:20 PM.

  6. #26
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    Yea, I remember thinking it a bit strange to add sibe to the mix considering how much BC's excel at agility. Like I say though I could have that wrong.

    You won't see them excelling in Australia as the breeder is not in this country LOL (maybe could have specified that LOL)

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    Yea, I remember thinking it a bit strange to add sibe to the mix considering how much BC's excel at agility. Like I say though I could have that wrong.

    You won't see them excelling in Australia as the breeder is not in this country LOL (maybe could have specified that LOL)
    Havent seem them excelling internationaly yet either and I watch all the world cups etc.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Havent seem them excelling internationaly yet either and I watch all the world cups etc.
    Perhaps they don't go in the world cups, I wouldn't know.

    Do they state the breed of dogs in those things? I just wonder as most of the pups I have seen pics of appear to mostly have border collie traits, though I have seen a couple of pictures of pups thrown more to the sibe.

    I don't know, or really care about the agility aspect as like I said, I don't know if I got that right. All I care about is that they are apparently breeding very responsibly and IMO, that's all that really matters.

    I personally do not have a problem with cross breeding (regardless of whether they appear to have a true purpose or not) as long as it is done responsibly...thats really the only point I was trying to make so it doesnt matter why this person breeds or what they do with the cross.

    Edit to add: I was a bit curious after that though and I went to this other forum and looked up some old posts. The dogs are bred for obediance and agility, I think mostly obediance. They have dogs here in Australia apparently. The reason for the breeding that I can determine from the posts is to get the intelligence and trainability of the BC but adding the sibe to remove some of the "silliness" of the BC. Sizewise and litterwise it's a good combo. The breeding is also done for looks with more striking markings in the cross, a finer nose and a nice plume tail.....something like that. I read a few posts and then I have come back here and written it so I could have got some mixed up but that seems to be the gist of it. It also appears that they no longer breed, their last litter was in March from a 50/50 mix to a pure border. Also looks like she wasn't charging hefty prices for the pups....well heftier than I have ever paid but not exorbatent (sp)
    Last edited by Lala; 01-15-2011 at 06:22 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    Perhaps they don't go in the world cups, I wouldn't know.

    I don't know, or really care about the agility aspect as like I said, I don't know if I got that right. All I care about is that they are apparently breeding very responsibly and IMO, that's all that really matters.

    I personally do not have a problem with cross breeding (regardless of whether they appear to have a true purpose or not) as long as it is done responsibly...thats really the only point I was trying to make so it doesnt matter why this person breeds or what they do with the cross.

    Edit to add: I was a bit curious after that though and I went to this other forum and looked up some old posts. The dogs are bred for obediance and agility, I think mostly obediance. They have dogs here in Australia apparently. The reason for the breeding that I can determine from the posts is to get the intelligence and trainability of the BC but adding the sibe to remove some of the "silliness" of the BC. Sizewise and litterwise it's a good combo. The breeding is also done for looks with more striking markings in the cross, a finer nose and a nice plume tail.....something like that. I read a few posts and then I have come back here and written it so I could have got some mixed up but that seems to be the gist of it. It also appears that they no longer breed, their last litter was in March from a 50/50 mix to a pure border. Also looks like she wasn't charging hefty prices for the pups....well heftier than I have ever paid but not exorbatent (sp)
    A well bred working BC is about the least silly dog I know. If people think the BC is a silly dog then they have never met a true working bred BC. My young BC was handling sheep competently from an early age and is so easy to train.

    There is a very good dog trainer in Perth who used to run her Sibes in agility but they certainly were not in the same class as the herding dogs.

    To breed only for looks is to breed to the fashion market hence the high prices. Nothing particularly responsible about that. The BC has a multitude of traits that need to be assessed. You could end up with anything, breeding for looks and rolling the dice breeding back to a mix..

    I understand what you are saying but to me your example smacks of making money and nothing more. I dont find anything responsible about it at all.
    I apologise when I get riled up when such a great dog as a BC is used in such ventures. I just have worked with these dogs for a long time and it riles me up because there will never in my book be a good reason to mess with an all ready great dog - the true well bred working BC.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 01-15-2011 at 07:00 PM.

  10. #30
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    No need to apologise....doesn't bother me.

    I grew up with a border collie from good working lines and she could definitely be a bit silly, or "mental" is probably a better term for it, at times.

    I only used that person as an example as they are the only person I know of purpose cross breeding and providing health checks on the parents before breeding and screening homes and providing post adoption care etc.

    LLike I think I said earlier, I personally have absolutely no problem with cross breeding. Even if it is just to make something cute and fashionable. My only problem comes from people doing it irresponsibly and creating little genetic timebombs, or angry little dogs, or not proving after adoption care/advice.

    If they are doing all that then they can breed whatever they like IMO.

    But totally understand that you would be offended if BCs are your breed and that is the example I used.

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