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Thread: New Member - Free Puppies for Thinkers Booklet

  1. #1
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    Default New Member - Free Puppies for Thinkers Booklet

    Hi everyone. I joined this board last year and have not participated like I expected. I'd like to bring some helpful information to the forum.
    Last edited by Dogand; 08-16-2010 at 02:21 AM.

  2. #2
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    I had a quick look

    I can't find anything on Alan J Turner's qualifications or training experience at whistlecome.com or 21stcenturydogs.info

    The book answers a lot of questions asked by first time puppy owners here, but it also seems long and repetitive at first glance. And I'm not sure how I like the idea of "don't play wrestle with your dog" as a solution to doggy play biting. If my dog bites too hard - I figure I've been wrestling / playing too hard or she's pushing her luck so I stop playing for a bit.

    It's a 7MB pdf. I'd probably continue to refer people to dogstardaily.com - because it's easier to see where those people are coming from (their training background etc).

  3. #3
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    The dont play tug of war command to puppy owners.
    Yeah, lost me just about there.
    Utter rubbish advice.
    And i agree, repetative.
    And cannot find qualifications either????
    mmmm

  4. #4
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    Ah I missed the "don't play tug of war".

    Susan Garrett, Agility champion and maker of training DVDs would die laughing. None of her dogs would work for her if she didn't play tug with them, because that's how she's trained them.

  5. #5
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    Good analogy, lol.
    I haven't read the links yet but I plan to.
    I, like most others here have no qualifications and we mostly read what we can and find what works for us in our situations. That is what I do anyway and for me, any advice is welcome. I don't have to use it if I feel it would not suit my dogs but I certainly will if it does.


    Have saved it. Thank you.
    Last edited by Di_dee1; 06-21-2010 at 09:52 AM.

    Any posts made under the name of Di_dee1 one can be used by anyone as I do not give a rats.

  6. #6
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    Dogand, I'm not going to get into the discussion of qualifications etc, but I would like to say thank you for coming back on to further explain yourself. We get a lot of people that come on here, post links to this and that, and never return...gets on a lot of people's nerves. Yes, we have a few members here that are involved with dog training and those people have established themselves here and are valued members. I hope that you do the same and enjoy the forums.

    In My Home Dog Minding
    www.greyhoundrescue.com.au

  7. #7
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    Hi Alan

    Great to see you back. Like GAG said, some people just come and post to up their site score in google - or so they think. Like I said before - a lot of what you wrote is good info. Surely you don't expect us all to agree with every point - you can't take that personally. But it does make for friendly discussion.

    As for the play wrestling - my main point is that I think gentle play wrestle is good and I agree with you that rough play is bad.

    Some how my dog knows to *match* the level of play to the other dog or person. So she leaves dogs that are not interested alone. She's super gentle with old dogs, they get a kiss on the chin or left alone. She plays no contact chase me with little dogs. And will full wrestle with farm dogs and beagles - hanging off each other's cheeks and necks. And she has learned that if she grabs the dog's collar - she can wrestle much harder before the dog objects - but I don't encourage this since she can chomp through an ordinary webbing lead in three bites, I don't like the idea of her doing same to a collar.

    But if you never play wrestle with the dog, how does it learn the level of gentle required with you. Or how do you learn what the dog thinks is rough, ie if I get nipped, one of us has pushed the boundaries. She has never nipped a child, but I'm very careful around small children - as I said in below, they need to know she's not a toy and if they are gentle, she is gentle.

    I practice handling her all over and tipping her over, usually gently, wrestling is a part of that. I can reach down her throat and pull a piece of food out without getting bitten. I don't know if that's because she's always been good natured about sharing, or because I've always practiced with her. We did do puppy preschool with a vet - so he did emphasise the need for practing the moves involved with a thorough vet inspection. And every vet I've taken her to, has been pleased with her. We do obedience training at CCD level with some higher skills included for fun, and we do agility training, and we've just started herding lessons. So I'm getting a lot of input on technique. And it's interesting that techniques for one style of training can adversely affect another eg always heeling on left - is bad for agility - and the level of guidance required for agility can reduce the doggy initiative for herding.

    This is what I wrote in response to your other post.

    It's not clear from your empty profile on this site that the author of the book "Alan J Turner" uses "Dogand" as their user id on this site. From your link - I got the two links I referred to and no more. Might help to put your main site link on those other pages.

    If you really want to be ripped to pieces - post the same at
    Dogz Online Forums (Australia's Pure Breed Dog Community)

    I don't have any dog training qualifications, though I have trained with some who have dog training qualifications, vet science degrees and practice, dog sport championships, and I've read their books and watched their DVDs.

    I'm not plugging a free (for limited time) e-book on the net. And I don't expect academic qualifications either though that would be nice, a list of professional experience would be sufficient. And then I'd have some clue - besides what you put in your booklet - about what style of training background you have.

    I for one, think that whatever method works, is the one you should use. So when I recommend a training method, it's usually several different techniques.

    On the websites I refered to that I found via the pdf link, your qualifications or experience are not described and I couldn't find a link either.

    I did find some stuff with Google but it wasn't clear if that Alan J Turner was the same person that wrote the booklet or posted here - ie those websites didn't link back to the one you gave us.

    Take two seconds to fill in your profile and include the websites in your info so we can find you. Compare what you have given us with what we get from Dog Star Daily and about Ian Dunbar, or even more locally (Australian), what we get from Steve Courntey at K9pro.com.au formerly K9Force.com.au - it's easy to see where they are coming from.

    CPDT, CEU? These are American things? I'm not familiar with what they mean unless you tell me or I go raid the search engine again.

    Does my trainer give me resources - yes.
    Dog Star Daily
    K9 Pro The K9 Professionals; Dog Training and Behaviour Site
    Say Yes Dog Training
    Gary Wilkes Click and Treat
    and much more.
    and my local dog club(s). However as websites go, they work much better face to face.

    And no I don't agree with everything they do either - I'm a thinking person...
    You didn't link the howsbently to the original post. Not very helpful.

    It's important. There's loads of crap dog training advice out there. I didn't say yours was all crap.

    I just objected to some specific bits.

    As far as the repetitive bits go - it is possible these days to make a pdf include links to other bits in the pdf - so you can click through forwards and backwards, eg click on the index to jump to the info you want to read now/first. It works much better as a reference that way. And it makes it easier to skip the bits that aren't relevant.

    As a start to finish read - it is extremely annoying to get to a bit that you think you've read before, again and again and again.

    For instance - what is the point of "men and dogs", page 19 of writing the first paragraph twice. All that indenting stuff is annoying too.

    Those pretty coloured keywords on the first page look like links but they don't link. For some reason, while the table of contents / index does link jump, you can't get back, ie I can't get acrobat to give me the index or chapter headings on the side and jump around as I want. This may be my personal limitation, or it may be how you've set the document up.

    I'm not sure I'd label things mathematically but you do say it's for "thinkers". I would call "Puppies in group B" > "Older Puppies" and as you have defined Group B - I would have defined "Older Puppies". Some trainers refer to them as "adolescent" - and we well understand what that means, ie big enough to be trouble and learning to think independently - more trouble.

    Why has the font layout gone all weird on page 61. I think I hate the dot point format, you need to make it line space within a dot point the same as other paragraphs, ie closer.

    Where is my jump link to skip to older puppies. And for ease of printing - given that these are mutually exclusive things, I'd start a new page for older puppies. So I could just print the bit I need, if I want to kill a few trees.

    But having skipped to group B older puppies - you assume play biting is still normal behaviour, page 63, as if the dog has been living without any training for its entire life. Um. Would be nice if you said this.
    "Group B dogs have perfected play biting as a method to communicate with humans.
    Because the dogs are older and families have yet to teach the dogs about play-biting,"

    hello? Not my family.

    "People naturally respond with more force and harsher punishers."
    how bout sticking "many" at the front of that sentence because it's not the way I go. I know as you have hinted but perhaps not repeated enough - the rougher you handle your dog, the rougher it will be with you. So where is the most basic correction? ie STOP playing with the puppy and withdraw attention for 30 seconds.

    •Avoid play that involves tumbling, wrestling, hugging or interacting with your hands.
    on page 59. The fact that my dog is used to being hugged - is all down to me. A dog that never gets hugged is going to be a danger to small children. Of course it does help to teach all small children that a dog is not the same as a doll or a toy and lots of dogs find hugs a bit scary.

    "Play wrestling teaches puppies that rough play is ok."
    page 65, this is what I objected to. You need to put the word "Rough" at the front of that sentence.
    "Rough handling of your dog will teach your dog that it's ok to be rough with you. Ruff Ruff."

    Also since I have an older pup and you say the methods for younger puppies don't work, I skip the younger puppy training methods, but you refer back but don't link back to "kinder methods" and yet I can't find a heading for "kinder methods".

    It's like you say that techniques for younger pups don't work with older pups and then you give few techniques for dealing with older puppies, and a nice list of what not to do.

    I like what you say about the dangers of adding another puppy before the first one is behaving acceptably (trained well). But I think I'd put the word "beware" at the front of "add a pup" header so it reads "Beware Add a Pup" ie lots of people think adding a pup is a good thing to do if the first one is out of control. So they might skip reading the detail and just get another puppy.

    I still can't find the bit about playing tug.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 06-22-2010 at 04:40 PM.

  8. #8
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    Phew, Hy. you have been through it with a fine toothed comb.

    Any posts made under the name of Di_dee1 one can be used by anyone as I do not give a rats.

  9. #9
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    I skipped the bits about toilet training and diet. Though they looked good eg don't scold or rub dogs nose in it... people still do that and wonder why it isn't working for them.

    So hardly fine toothed. I just addressed the biting bit which interests me.

  10. #10
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    Hi Dogand

    So why does the link have "$7.95" on its graphic (picture). Ie that's why I thought it was free for a limited time and I agree, I don't think that amount is going to cover the cost of a professional editor. Some of the published novelists who charge $30 AUD per book don't seem to bother with professional editors either though I do think they hire someone to deal with formatting (designer?).

    I waive any rights to credit (financial, "ripping" or otherwise) for my editorial offerings. I gift them to you for you to use or ignore as you see fit. Hopefully that should keep legal people happy.

    People really do need the info you're distributing - there's yet another - "how do I toilet train and shut my dog up" post today.

    Some of us are completely undone by a dog that doesn't respond to the training that worked on the dog we had last time. Or any other dog in the park but mine. But we're getting there.

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