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Thread: Should Soft Mouthing Be Discouraged?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleasanta View Post
    Firstly I would like to say it is great you have a Rottweiler that tolerates this
    Yes it is, and the breed is not important at all here It's just her personality. She's the "nanny", tolerant with all dogs, pups, females, males...

    You can disagree...that is ok. Mouthing HUMANS should be discouraged and done early.
    OK, that's your opinion, I believe that you should do whatever suits your lifestyle and look at your dog and teach him accordingly. My dog is not jumping allover people and mouthing when they come to my house. He knows very well he must not do that. But if someone's affectionate he will open his mouth and put someone's hand in it - not closing it. It's like yawning and having a hand in his mouths, I can't describe it, but it certanly cannot hurt your skin, or even kids skin because he plays with my nieces very often. So, there's no bite whatsoever, no squeezing, its basically licking and opening mouths that's all. With humans. With Ira is different it's their dogy game and they behave like dogs.

    Hopefully your Rottweiler is not the boss of the house to set the rules, which means it is not the Alpha...you are hopefully "the Boss" as you like to call it. It is ABSOLUTELY true that dogs communicate with each other using their mouths, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed to mouth humans. Our skin is a lot thinner and more sensitive than dogs. It is a lot easier for our skin to be punctured than dog's skin.
    If you read my posts you'll find that I do not believe in "alpha theory" and I explained why. I certanly am the leader and have wonderful polite dogs that I am really happy with. I also allow them to be dogs.
    When we had our Rottweiler...breeder told us...just let him mouth you...he will grow out of it. Stupid as we were and naiive...we listened. Unfortunately he didn't stop! He got bigger...and stronger and was still mouthing. He then thought it was ok to do it to other people too. A behaviour is a lot easier to deal with when it is done early!
    Well it's not all black and white. You can let him, but you must know the limits and know how to teach your dog to know limits. You can't simply just "let him mouth" thinking it will go away. I never did!!! And I never would.

  2. #32
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    Fedra, "But if someone's affectionate he will open his mouth and put someone's hand in it - not closing it. It's like yawning and having a hand in his mouths, I can't describe it"
    I get what you mean. That's what I was trying to describe


    Thanks again for all these replies. I can see this from both sides but I'm thinking for the sake of my kids and any visitors we have I will discourage it.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan View Post
    Fedra, "But if someone's affectionate he will open his mouth and put someone's hand in it - not closing it. It's like yawning and having a hand in his mouths, I can't describe it"
    I get what you mean. That's what I was trying to describe


    Thanks again for all these replies. I can see this from both sides but I'm thinking for the sake of my kids and any visitors we have I will discourage it.
    Good choice IMO

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleasanta View Post
    And then there is story of a dog being injured under his care - electrocuted I believe...please show evidence of this story!

    I also don't think one strategy manages all cases and he seems to just stick to his few basic ones that work for ALL...Cesar uses a lot of different techniques. It depends if he is dealing with "red zone" cases...anxiety...fear aggression...fear of loud noises etc etc. He works on creating balance in the dog's life.

    My biggest gripe is this whole - don't try this at home kids - part of it....show me where it states that Victoria Stilwell encourages people to do her techniques WITHOUT consulting a professional!

    The stuff Victoria does doesn't have the potential to hurt dogs, what Cesar does, does!...and still she is one of the trainers that were mentioned that the Delta Society doesn't like for her training methods (sorry, can't find the bloody article given to me by Delta trainer)!

    I am just wondering...you also don't like for the fact he has a TV show and is obviously making money from it. How is that any different with Victoria Stilwell and her "It's me or the dog"?

    Sorry, you misunderstood me, what I meant by the "don't try this at home" was that he does a lot of stuff people will try, and are more likely to try cause it says don't try this at home - kinda like Jackass.

    Someone said it well before - perhaps even you? That Victoria deals with the people more than the dogs and Cesar deals with the dogs.

    Very rarely have I come across the situation where the dog is at fault - 99% of the time it IS the owner.

    I think her manner is more gentle and personable.

    He also seems to make a big show and song about it whereas hers is marketed differently.

  5. #35
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    Hi Occy

    It was me that said Victoria deals with the owners first and Cleasanta that disagreed with me. I think Cleasanta finds Victoria annoying/wrong. I find both Victoria and Cesar annoying some of the time but I like some of their ideas. And I think the idea of dealing with the owners predominantly is important or all the work that goes into the dog will be wasted as soon as it goes home. Like feed a fish to a hungry person, or teach them how to fish.

    I prefer positive methods as much as possible but sometimes they're hard to apply to a "don't do this" situation. Delta trainers (Neither Victoria or Cesar are Delta trainers) won't have any kind of punishment where you do something to the dog like squirt it with a jet of water or throw a pillow at it. They do use the punishment (negative consequence?) where you withdraw attention from the dog. But if the dog is off doing what it wants and ignoring you - how does that help? There are a lot of Delta trainers out there, but only a few of them get reliable results. I forget who mentioned them first. I feel their technique is a bit too much like playing the game of "hot" and "cold" without using the word "cold".

  6. #36
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    I know how delta works and I know several trainers. Balance is the key to training

  7. #37
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    Well obviously these must all be trainers with shows on TV, yes?

    Cause I've never heard of either of them, but then again I only watch 1 show on TV as I loath televisions. That might explain my ignorance about the existence of these people?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Hi Occy

    It was me that said Victoria deals with the owners first and Cleasanta that disagreed with me. I think Cleasanta finds Victoria annoying/wrong. I find both Victoria and Cesar annoying some of the time but I like some of their ideas. And I think the idea of dealing with the owners predominantly is important or all the work that goes into the dog will be wasted as soon as it goes home. Like feed a fish to a hungry person, or teach them how to fish.

    I prefer positive methods as much as possible but sometimes they're hard to apply to a "don't do this" situation. Delta trainers (Neither Victoria or Cesar are Delta trainers) won't have any kind of punishment where you do something to the dog like squirt it with a jet of water or throw a pillow at it. They do use the punishment (negative consequence?) where you withdraw attention from the dog. But if the dog is off doing what it wants and ignoring you - how does that help? There are a lot of Delta trainers out there, but only a few of them get reliable results. I forget who mentioned them first. I feel their technique is a bit too much like playing the game of "hot" and "cold" without using the word "cold".
    It was me mentioning Delta. I don't think Victoria is "wrong"...her success shows she must be doing something right. I don't think Cesar is right in everything...especially the E-Collar and possibly the prong collar. America is a bit different when it comes to the use of these collars. I will say though...the idea of the prong collar is that it is less harmful than the check collar. If used PROPERLY...it doesn't inflict pain as a check collar can. It sits around the dog's neck...when you pull the leash GENTLY...it pinched the neck and stops the dog in its track. Have a look at K9Force's websitehttp://www.k9force.net/ ...they talk about these collars. They also talk about how dangerous the head halters can be on a dog.

    Talking to a Delta trainer/behaviourist when you have a "problem" dog is like banging your head against the wall. Saying to Delta trainer..."but he keeps on biting my child"...Delta trainer..."ignore...redirect...and praise when he is listening". In the meantime...child is missing an arm due to ignoring and waiting for moment to redirect and THEN praise for dog to stop munching on your kid. I DEFINITELY believe in positive reinforcements, but there are times where ignore, redirect and praise doesn't quite cut it.

    Cesar says...I rehabilitate dogs...I train people. He teaches people where they have gone wrong and shows them how to deal with the situation to get a balanced dog.

    Victoria is a positive reinforcement trainer. She is firmly against the use of forceful, dominance-based training techniques (taken from her website), which sounds VERY Delta. From what I can see...she doesn't have any documented training and/or education in dog training/behaviour field (the same goes for Cesar). They both have an understanding about dogs. They both have books and TV shows, which I would think...rake in millions of dollars.

    Here is the thing...if I had a dog that needed to learn obedience training etc...I would possibly contact Victoria. If I however had a dog with psychological problems, scared and/or a "red zone" case...I would contact Cesar in a heartbeat. He clearly says...I am not a trainer. I don't teach dogs to sit, stay, down etc. Dogs that Cesar see have already been trained...trained to misbehave and be unbalanced. He says...NO TOUCH, NO TALK, NO EYE CONTACT! It works for dogs barking when people enter the house and for very shy dogs who want to make contact on their own terms. This method is in no way aggressive towards the dog. He teaches that calm, assertive (confident) energy is the go and what is wrong with that? The key word here is CALM! Wouldn't we all just love to be able to be this way?!? No screaming and yelling...running after the dog when it has your expensive shoes! Telling Fido 15 times to stop barking at the visitors and jumping on their laps. Can you imagine yourself...running a pack of (previously) dog-aggressive Rottweilers, Pitbulls etc etc together and none of them showing it? I am pretty sure Victoria can't do this! Can you imagine yourself being able to control that situation?

    I would love to say that I could I am a calm person...I am also an assertive person, but combining those and following through when it comes to my dogs...maybe not as much as I should! I am as guilty as any other dog owner for "babying" my dogs and sometimes humanising them. I am an assertive person, but I am also a big softy. They look at me with these big, brown eyes and I am sold! They live inside with us and they are allowed on my . They are kind, affectionate, happy, active Staffies. They do not show any aggression, because that is simply a behaviour I will not tolerate for even 1 second.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Occy View Post
    Sorry, you misunderstood me, what I meant by the "don't try this at home" was that he does a lot of stuff people will try, and are more likely to try cause it says don't try this at home - kinda like Jackass.

    Someone said it well before - perhaps even you? That Victoria deals with the people more than the dogs and Cesar deals with the dogs.

    Very rarely have I come across the situation where the dog is at fault - 99% of the time it IS the owner.

    I think her manner is more gentle and personable.

    He also seems to make a big show and song about it whereas hers is marketed differently.
    Sorry, you misunderstood me, what I meant by the "don't try this at home" was that he does a lot of stuff people will try, and are more likely to try cause it says don't try this at home - kinda like Jackass. I am pretty sure that no dog behaviourist would say it is ok to use their techniques without consulting a professional...and that goes for Victoria too.

    Someone said it well before - perhaps even you? That Victoria deals with the people more than the dogs and Cesar deals with the dogs.
    It wasn't me! Cesar's motto is...I rehabilitate dogs...I TRAIN people. He has said on many occasions that he is not a dog trainer. He doesn't teach dogs to sit, stay, drop. He teached people to fix what they did wrong in the first place to achieve a balanced dog.

    Very rarely have I come across the situation where the dog is at fault - 99% of the time it IS the owner. I guess you agree with Cesar on that one!

    I think her manner is more gentle and personable. Possibly due to her being a "positive reinforcement" trainer. Like I said before...Cesar doesn't TRAIN dogs...he rehabilitate dogs when the owners have stuffed up! He teaches them what they did wrong...why Fido is acting the way he is and how to fix it.

    He also seems to make a big show and song about it whereas hers is marketed differently How is her show any different? What do you base that comment on? They both have books they sell...they both have TV shows...they both probably make millions! She comes into peoples homes in her dominatrix clothes (for sure a PR stunt), but anybody with a little bit of respect for themselves IMO would have refused this! It looks arrogant...snobby...dominant...and downright idiotic. Sometimes...Cesar can come across a bit "pushy", but often it is because the owners don't listen to him and simply don't "get it".

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