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Thread: What is a BYB? and What Everyone Should Know About It.

  1. #61
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    Anne unfortunatly is no longer a member

    Some people believe crossbreeding makes the puppies healthier, but the fact is, the puppies could either take all the best qualities, and end up with a perfect dog, or take the worst qualities, and end up with a dog being put down at a very young age, or the owners spend thousands on operations and medications. Its a lucky dip with crossbreeding.
    With pure breeding, you know exactly what you are getting.
    Registered, responsible, reputable breeders get health and temperament tests, attend dog shows and earn titiles, and have extremely well thought out breedings.
    Registered breeders are not allowed to breed cross breeds. So they wouldn't attend dog shows, and they wouldn't earn titiles. The average cost for a health test including BAER, OFA patella, OFA hip and CERF is about $430.
    Now times that by two. What kind of crossbreeder wants to spend that kind of money when the dog looks pretty healthy on the outside?
    The facts are, crossbreeders are either under educated or our for money. Neither are reasons to breed.

    I own a 12 year old Jack Russell X Maltese from a pet shop(puppy mill) and an 8 year old Kelpie X Border Collie from a shelter. I am so lucky to have two healthy crossbreed dogs. Roly's only issue are his bowed legs.

    Im sorry, but while thousands of crossbreeds are dying in shelter, there is no such thing as a responsible crossbreeder.
    Education not Legislation

  2. #62
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    Myf, generally and in principle I am in complete agreement. But then the Lurcher came to mind- not a breed but type of dog that is a crossbreed designed essentially by the Roma to create a purpose built, 'smarter' sighthound. (Aside: I'm not convinced sighthounds need to be smarter, but that's another story for another day). And what about the Dobe? A purpose built, man made breed now considered purebred but originally made up of multiple crosses of multiple breeds.

    Totally agree that irresponsible breeding for money's sake is reprehensible, but not sure about a blanket statement on pure versus cross....
    Last edited by Villain & Flirtt; 12-01-2010 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Typos

  3. #63
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    How long has the Dobe been a breed? What was their original purpose?
    All breeds were originally a crossbreed, but they all had a purpose.
    I've never heard of the Lurcher..
    Education not Legislation

  4. #64
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    I've moved to the computer to pinch some stuff from websites (the iPhone wasn't gonna cut it, lol)...

    Start with the Dobe; This is from Wiki

    "Doberman Pinschers were first bred in the town of Apolda, in the German state of Thuringia around 1890, following the Franco-Prussian War by Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann. Dobermann served in the dangerous role of local tax collector, and ran the Apolda dog pound. With access to dogs of many breeds, he aimed to create a breed that would be ideal for protecting him during his collections, which took him through many bandit-infested areas. He set out to breed a new type of dog that, in his opinion, would be the perfect combination of strength, loyalty, intelligence, and ferocity. Later, Otto Goeller and Philip Gruening continued to develop the breed to become the dog that is seen today.

    The breed is believed to have been created from several different breeds of dogs that had the characteristics that Dobermann was looking for, including the German Pinscher, the Beauceron, the Rottweiler, the Thuringian Sylvan Dog, the Greyhound, the Great Dane, the Weimaraner, the German Shorthaired Pointer, the Manchester Terrier and the Old German Shepherd Dog. The exact ratios of mixing, and even the exact breeds that were used, remain uncertain to this day, although many experts believe that the Doberman Pinscher is a combination of at least four of these breeds. The single exception is the documented crossing with the Greyhound and Manchester Terrier. It is also widely believed that the old German Shepherd gene pool was the single largest contributor to the Doberman breed.

    After Dobermann's death in 1894, the Germans named the breed Dobermann-pinscher in his honor, but a half century later dropped the pinscher on the grounds that this German word for terrier was no longer appropriate. The British did the same a few years later"

    So the Dobe is kinda a poster child for a "designer dog" in some ways..... recognised by the ANKC around 1908...

    Second, the Lurcher; This is from My Pets (.net)

    "The Lurcher is not strictly speaking a dog breed, but rather a type of dog. It is a crossbred sighthound that is generally a cross between a sighthound and another sort of dog, usually a pastoral dog. Collie crosses have always been very popular. Lurchers can be crossed several times. There is no particular type, so they can be as small as a Whippet or as large as a Deerhound; but most are chosen for a size similar to that of a Greyhound, and a distinct sighthound form is preferred.

    Generally, the aim of the cross is to produce a smarter sighthound, an animal suitable for the original purpose of the lurcher, poaching. Developed in the middle ages in Great Britain, the lurcher was created because only nobility were allowed to have purebred sighthounds like Irish Wolfhounds, Scottish Deerhounds, Greyhounds, and Whippets, whereas crosses, or curs, had no such perceived value. Similarly, nobility owned most land and commoners were not allowed to hunt game on crown land or other noble estates. It was important that the lurcher did not resemble too closely a sighthound, as the penalties for owning a sighthound were high, particularly given that if you owned one then by default you were considered a poacher. The original lurchers therefore were generally heavier-coated dogs who could herd sheep as well as bring home a rabbit or hare for the pot.

    Roma, more commonly known as Romany Gypsies, were instrumental in developing the lurcher type, and the word 'lurcher' is believed to derive from a Romani word 'lur' meaning thief.

    The lurcher has as many uses as types can be crossbred, but often they are used as hunting dogs that can chase and kill their prey. Today most are used for general pest control, typically rabbits, hares, and foxes. They have been successfully used on deer. The only real sporting use of the lurcher is in hare coursing. Lurchers move most effectively over open ground, although different crosses suit different terrains. Lure coursing and dog racing are also popular in areas with little available hunting or for people who dislike hunting. The modern Lurcher is growing from its old image of disrepute to heights of popularity as an exceptional family dog."

    Having previously owned Irish Wolfhounds, I know that the IW breed is in significant danger of extinction. The IW beed pool is so small (due to having been brought back from extinction before through outcrossing) that even intelligent, educated, sensible breeding programs are seeing the breed cut down by cancers in dogs as young as 2. Many breeders are now crossing Greyhounds with IW to create a Lurcher type which is proving to have hybrid vigour, structural stability and good temperament and is at least keeping some IW genes available in the gene pool.

    Maybe someone can help me sort this in my mind, but it seems that it is not a black and white thing where we can say "pure = good" and "cross = bad"... but, again, I do say that irresponsible breeding of dogs in a manner designed to maximise money at the risk of the health, stability, suitability ect of the dogs involved is absolutely bad.

  5. #65
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    Trouble is dysplasias will often skip a generation You need the history of the parents ancestors to really get on top of dyplasia. You also dont know what type of conformation a crossbred might have as there are all sorts of genetic combinations possible. I have seen some dreadful conformations that perhaps a ordinary pet owner wouldnt pick up but causes problems later down the track. All of this occurs in purebreds too but it is such easier to predict.

    Then what if somone who buys the crossbred puppies breeds from them too. You would have to have spay/ neuter contracts in place and all that. It is an expensive busness breeding dogs properly

    As to health testing the cost is quite high especially if you have to test for a lot of things.

    Yes many dogs today are a result of crossbreeding but the original crossbreeders had a definte purpose in mind that has resulted in many of todays breeds. That rigorous purpose and culling is no longer there.

    Yes there are plenty of iresponsible purebred breeders who breed to a fashion regardless of the effect on the dogs health. I dont agree with that either.

    But we have some great purebreds and some ethical breeders producing healthy purebred dogs, I would always support them first.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villain & Flirtt View Post
    Having previously owned Irish Wolfhounds, I know that the IW breed is in significant danger of extinction. The IW beed pool is so small (due to having been brought back from extinction before through outcrossing) that even intelligent, educated, sensible breeding programs are seeing the breed cut down by cancers in dogs as young as 2. Many breeders are now crossing Greyhounds with IW to create a Lurcher type which is proving to have hybrid vigour, structural stability and good temperament and is at least keeping some IW genes available in the gene pool.

    Maybe someone can help me sort this in my mind, but it seems that it is not a black and white thing where we can say "pure = good" and "cross = bad"... but, again, I do say that irresponsible breeding of dogs in a manner designed to maximise money at the risk of the health, stability, suitability ect of the dogs involved is absolutely bad.
    This is an example of crossbreeding for a purpose - to improve the quality and health of a breed and to strengthen a gene pool. The end point such as health, structure and temperament have been considered as has the genetics. The dogs involved are all sighthounds and not an ad hoc mixing of breeds with no real knowledge of the end result.

  7. #67
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    My dearest Roly is Jack Russell X Maltese......no purpose what so ever, whether done responsibly or not.
    Education not Legislation

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiemyf7 View Post
    My dearest Roly is Jack Russell X Maltese......no purpose what so ever, whether done responsibly or not.
    Ummmm.... Myf... not entirely sure what you're saying. But if there is no actual "reading between the lines" supposed to be done and it is just a statement, well, fair enough. He's a nice looking Roly, that's for sure :-)

    I found this post by Anne in another thread which I did not want to reopen... I know Anne is no longer a member, and that's a shame, because I think she summed it up nicely and between hers and Kalacreek's posts, I think I am well on my way to having my own opinion based on fair knowledge;

    Anne said: "There are ridiculous notions sprouted by both parties when it comes to the battle between xbred and pure bred dogs. There are healthy pure bred dogs and there are unhealthy purebred dogs. If the breeders of some breeds do not lift their game, there will be a lot less healthy purebred dogs as time goes on. There are issues in the purebred dog world regardless of who wants to accept and acknowledge that.

    There is more chance of an owner at least knowing what the future health is of a purebred pup. There is more reliability on the nature and personality of the dog as well. There is also certainly definite knowledge on exactly what the pups will look like and grow like.

    Xbred dogs have their place in our society as well. I believe that they are currently elevated to ludicrous high levels in this present day though. There is a much higher risk of having a dog with behavioural and health issues in cross bred dogs simply due to the nature of how they are bred and the lack of knowledge and the breeding practices in general.

    I believe that the notion that 'all' cross bred dogs are unhealthy to be illogical, the same as I believe the notion that all cross bred dog breeders do it for the money or are unloving or cruel dog owners is equally illogical and wrong. In the same vein, I do not think that all pure bred dog breeders breed healthy dogs, breed to better the breed or treat their dogs as they should. There are good and bad in both worlds, and both worlds have a place in our current society."

    Gee I wish there were better ways to encourage humans to make responsible decisions and be responsible dog owners.... I'm allowed to dream.

    Over and out.
    Last edited by Villain & Flirtt; 12-02-2010 at 03:51 PM. Reason: Bleedin' Typos!!

  9. #69
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    Many working sheep, cattle, and pig dogs are crosses, reason for that is that in pig dogs in particular most of the pure breeds are not up to doing the job, with the sheep and cattle dogs some are pure but more by chance than design, most graziers don't care weather a dog is pure or not, only that it is up to doing the job, no one out where I live buys working dogs from show alone kennels but will buy from working dog kennels, who may be members of the working dog registry, these breeders work their dogs, only a very few of these also show them, this has nothing to do with the designer craze, but does illustrate that crossing can have a place and can not be said to be all bad.

    I have bred Bandogs for many years and I do health test and temp test my dogs and know a few others who do the same, the dogs are purpose bred and we are careful about where they go to, making blanket statements about breeders only attempts to give a perception that is not always true.

    Those crossing the IW 's are possibly trying to save the breed, not familiar with them so cannot say, but if gene pools are allowed to drop too low some breeds will die out, they can be rescued by a proper program which may have to include crossing.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villain & Flirtt View Post
    Ummmm.... Myf... not entirely sure what you're saying. But if there is no actual "reading between the lines" supposed to be done and it is just a statement, well, fair enough. He's a nice looking Roly, that's for sure :-)

    I found this post by Anne in another thread which I did not want to reopen... I know Anne is no longer a member, and that's a shame, because I think she summed it up nicely and between hers and Kalacreek's posts, I think I am well on my way to having my own opinion based on fair knowledge;

    Anne said: "There are ridiculous notions sprouted by both parties when it comes to the battle between xbred and pure bred dogs. There are healthy pure bred dogs and there are unhealthy purebred dogs. If the breeders of some breeds do not lift their game, there will be a lot less healthy purebred dogs as time goes on. There are issues in the purebred dog world regardless of who wants to accept and acknowledge that.

    There is more chance of an owner at least knowing what the future health is of a purebred pup. There is more reliability on the nature and personality of the dog as well. There is also certainly definite knowledge on exactly what the pups will look like and grow like.

    Xbred dogs have their place in our society as well. I believe that they are currently elevated to ludicrous high levels in this present day though. There is a much higher risk of having a dog with behavioural and health issues in cross bred dogs simply due to the nature of how they are bred and the lack of knowledge and the breeding practices in general.

    I believe that the notion that 'all' cross bred dogs are unhealthy to be illogical, the same as I believe the notion that all cross bred dog breeders do it for the money or are unloving or cruel dog owners is equally illogical and wrong. In the same vein, I do not think that all pure bred dog breeders breed healthy dogs, breed to better the breed or treat their dogs as they should. There are good and bad in both worlds, and both worlds have a place in our current society."

    Gee I wish there were better ways to encourage humans to make responsible decisions and be responsible dog owners.... I'm allowed to dream.

    Over and out.
    Kalacreek said breeding crossbreeds for a purpose. Roly is Jack Russell X Maltese, absolutely no purpose what-so-ever

    I meet lots and lots of BYBs through my work, and I know they arn't all cruel money makers. Thats why I said they're either under educated or out for some money, or both I guess.

    Im sure there is a place for crossbreeds, but not until there arn't thousands being put down everyday all around the world.
    Apparently theres a shelter in California and they put down about 100 dogs...a day.
    Education not Legislation

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