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Thread: Natural Rearing Border Collie Breeder?

  1. #11
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    You clearly have never seen a dog suffer from parvo. We had a pup die of parvo when I was a kid and the most horrible thing was not even watching him die, but to know that he was pretty much being eaten alive by this virus from the inside and was in horrible pain. If you are willing to risk this for the sake of some esoteric idea about "natural living", you obviously care more about your ideals than about your pup. But what's worse, you will put every little pup that crosses your path at risk. Just like unvaccinated kids (don't get me started!) pose a mortal risk to small babies.

    I'm sorry, I somewhat understand where you are coming from and I agree we over-vaccinate and use way too much unnatural stuff in food and lots of things, but it's a knee jerk reaction. Not all things that are natural are good, not all things that are man-made are bad. It reminds me of a Tim Minchin song from his show with the Sydney Symphony Orchestra. I think it's called "The fence".

  2. #12
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    The original OP has many things right. Heartworm is not prevented. What you are giving your dog kills heartworm once they get it. This is why I don't treat in the winter months because it's not hot enough for heartworm to infect a dog. If I lived in tropical QLD where temperatures were constantly over 24degrees then yes I'd treat every month.

    I could in fact treat every three months and this is sufficient to kill heartworm. There is no preventative for heartworm.

    Immunity to diseases. Yes as breeders we vaccinate our puppies too early and mess with the natural immunity that the mother passes on. But unless a person doesn't want their pup until it's about 4 months old we have to start vaccinations early.

    Canine Cough, no it's not Kennel Cough. Again it's more about how healthy the dog is and how strong it's immune system is. I think vaccination of CC is for the young and old, much like the flu vax for us. A healthy dog no matter the strain often doesn't get CC. Considering it can travel on the wind if our dogs weren't healthy they'd all be going down with it.

    The reason it gets called Kennel Cough is that it most happens in Kennels where the dog is under stress thus lowering it's immune system. Whether your dog is vaccinated or not doesn't mean he will or won't get it. And if you vax your dog yearly for say 4 years with a C5 your dog has enough to sink a ship in it's system.

    In the states they don't vax like we do and vets are aware of what is in their area. Eg A dog in Florida would be having heartworm constantly. A dog in Alaska would never have heartworm.

    I like to vax a dog no more or no less than what is necessary. I don't agree with no vax, but at the same time we don't vax our children every year.

    I think a sensible middle ground is a great option. Holistic medicine is great but it won't treat full scale parvo.

    Nor will Slippery Elm Bark treat all bowel problems, but then it's also not always necessary to resort to Scourban each and every time either. It's horses for courses type of thing.

    Vets in Australia are taking advantage of us. Eg many people with arthritic dogs are paying huge amounts for animal anti inflammatory tablets when the human Mobic tablet will teat the dog for a fraction of the price with less stomach upsets. A good vet will inform you of that and one that wants your money won't.
    Last edited by MAC; 09-18-2012 at 01:33 PM.

  3. #13
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    "I think a sensible middle ground is a great option. Holistic medicine is great but it won't treat full scale parvo. "

    I agree.

    I don't systematically treat my dog for heartworm because a vet told me that he has never known a case of it in Canberra.

    But parvo... I know my dog would be most likely strong enough to beat it now, but there is no way I would risk her affecting little pups for whom it is often a dead warrant.

  4. #14
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    As another person who has witnessed first hand the dreadfull effects of parvo i'm begging you to please protect your dog from this and all the other preventable diseases out there.
    Would you really have it in you to hold a little puppy and force a tube right down thier throat into thier stomach...as they use the last bit of strength in thier scared dying body to try and fight the tube because they think you are choking them.???
    The look on the pups face....the noise they make....the shaking.....the total exhaustion ....and then while you hold them tight you then have to guess if the amount of food you are forcing through a giant syringe and down the tube isnt choking them ....too much ?? too little ??? Not to mention keeping them hydrated throughout the whole ordeal aswell.

    Could you really do that and feel good about your decision not to vaccinate them. I've been through this.....i $hit you not.....i held my dying pup every morning while the vet force fed him. That still haunts me to this day some 15 years later.

    I wouldnt wish it on my worse enemy.....but if the pup dies because of a disease like this you will only have yourself to blame if you choose not to vaccinate it.

    Could you live with that ?........Am i trying to scare you, make you feel bad, worried, mean ??? You bet ya i am. Trust me you dont want to go there. Just get the needles and enjoy a happy long life with your dog. It's as simple as that. Good luck with it all. I hope you get a lovely Border Collie and enjoy a happy life together.


    Quote Originally Posted by reyzor View Post
    Education is important, but big biceps are more importanter ...
    DONT SIC YOUR DOGMA ON ME !

  5. #15
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    ive never understood the whole non chemical debate...... when i was younger i loved the chemicals..... usually on a friday or saturday night.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    I love 2 things in this world. Spandex and reyzor... not necessarily in that order.

  6. #16
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    Haha Reyzor

    I personally would prefer to over vaccinate and keep my dogs free of those diseases than not vaccinate and take the risk of them dying. Parvovirus can be picked up and tracked back to your house on shoes etc. I wouldn't risk it.

    There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
    The original OP has many things right. Heartworm is not prevented. What you are giving your dog kills heartworm once they get it. This is why I don't treat in the winter months because it's not hot enough for heartworm to infect a dog. If I lived in tropical QLD where temperatures were constantly over 24degrees then yes I'd treat every month.

    I could in fact treat every three months and this is sufficient to kill heartworm. There is no preventative for heartworm.

    Immunity to diseases. Yes as breeders we vaccinate our puppies too early and mess with the natural immunity that the mother passes on. But unless a person doesn't want their pup until it's about 4 months old we have to start vaccinations early.

    Canine Cough, no it's not Kennel Cough. Again it's more about how healthy the dog is and how strong it's immune system is. I think vaccination of CC is for the young and old, much like the flu vax for us. A healthy dog no matter the strain often doesn't get CC. Considering it can travel on the wind if our dogs weren't healthy they'd all be going down with it.

    The reason it gets called Kennel Cough is that it most happens in Kennels where the dog is under stress thus lowering it's immune system. Whether your dog is vaccinated or not doesn't mean he will or won't get it. And if you vax your dog yearly for say 4 years with a C5 your dog has enough to sink a ship in it's system.

    In the states they don't vax like we do and vets are aware of what is in their area. Eg A dog in Florida would be having heartworm constantly. A dog in Alaska would never have heartworm.

    I like to vax a dog no more or no less than what is necessary. I don't agree with no vax, but at the same time we don't vax our children every year.

    I think a sensible middle ground is a great option. Holistic medicine is great but it won't treat full scale parvo.

    Nor will Slippery Elm Bark treat all bowel problems, but then it's also not always necessary to resort to Scourban each and every time either. It's horses for courses type of thing.

    Vets in Australia are taking advantage of us. Eg many people with arthritic dogs are paying huge amounts for animal anti inflammatory tablets when the human Mobic tablet will teat the dog for a fraction of the price with less stomach upsets. A good vet will inform you of that and one that wants your money won't.
    I am certainly not against modern medicine when it is necessary. If going to the vet is needed, that's exactly where I will be with my puppy/dog. Honestly, I would MUCH rather let my puppy stay at the breeders till it was 4 months old than vaccinate. I understand what you all are saying about parvo, and how awful it is, really, I do. As I've said before, I'm really not here looking to get into a debate about this, all I wanted was some information. I apologise if I am defensive, I have been seriously attacked on another forum regarding this subject, so I am a bit touchy. I realise you all are trying to help, and voicing your opinions, and I'm okay with that - but I would also ask that in return, you respect my (very researched) opinion.

    As far as preferring to "over vaccinate and keep your dogs free of those diseases" - I would ask you to do some of the research I have done. I will happily provide you with links to articles about dogs that have, without any question, died BECAUSE OF the vaccine. 100% certainty that is the cause. I would MUCH rather deal with a problem that MAY occur than introduce tons of rubbish ( do you all have ANY idea what is in vaccines????) into a poor young puppy.

    Anyway, like I said, not here to argue, just after some information.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by creek817 View Post
    I am certainly not against modern medicine when it is necessary. If going to the vet is needed, that's exactly where I will be with my puppy/dog. Honestly, I would MUCH rather let my puppy stay at the breeders till it was 4 months old than vaccinate. I understand what you all are saying about parvo, and how awful it is, really, I do. As I've said before, I'm really not here looking to get into a debate about this, all I wanted was some information. I apologise if I am defensive, I have been seriously attacked on another forum regarding this subject, so I am a bit touchy. I realise you all are trying to help, and voicing your opinions, and I'm okay with that - but I would also ask that in return, you respect my (very researched) opinion.

    As far as preferring to "over vaccinate and keep your dogs free of those diseases" - I would ask you to do some of the research I have done. I will happily provide you with links to articles about dogs that have, without any question, died BECAUSE OF the vaccine. 100% certainty that is the cause. I would MUCH rather deal with a problem that MAY occur than introduce tons of rubbish ( do you all have ANY idea what is in vaccines????) into a poor young puppy.

    Anyway, like I said, not here to argue, just after some information.
    Not all animals react well to a vaccine just like not all children do. Still I'd rather risk it. We've been 3 and a half years with out issues yet.

    Don't forget you are on a forum... Debate is bound to happen.

    There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face.

  9. #19

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    The number of dogs/humans that have adverse reactions to vaccines is miniscule compared to the number of dogs/humans that die as a result of being unvaccinated.

    p.s I know a person who is effectively a vegetable due to an adverse reaction to a vaccine, but i vaccinate my dogs and if for some unforseeable reason i end up having kids, they will be vaccinated also.

  10. #20
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    Im not pro vaccination either for my human or canine wards. and use bloods to check anti bodies, and environmental exposure, so you are not alone.

    I also feed raw. And share your concerns for the filth that is called dog food. But again, each to their own, and my apologies to all the 'Chappie' buyers out there.
    Each to their own

    Have you tried online vegetarian community? They tend to share our views on vaccinating and you might find one there.
    But to be honest, it is unlikely.

    So, for the gestation and weaning period, you may have to accept a pup that's been exposed to everything the dam/sire and owners bring to pup, AND that first Vaccination.

    Or go to an unregistered breeder. IN which case you will increase your other risks.
    Good luck!

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