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Thread: Picking the right puppy

  1. #41
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    There's nothing wrong with the dogs, Beau. As in, it's not their fault and they're all worthy of our love. But we need to prevent them from ending up in pet shops. Lots of dogs bought in pet shops get lovely owners and a great life. But a lot of them bought on a whim end up in shelters. Or bored and frustrated, alone in a backyard.

    And they are often bred without any regard for their or their parents' wellbeing, which is also very wrong. If we want to improve the fate of dogs in this country we need to stop the kind of breeders that usually supply pet shops and also check out new dog owners to try make sure they are committed to care properly for their dogs.

  2. #42
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    I won't go into a pet shop that sells puppies. Unless - it's a rescue group providing opportunities to meet their dogs - and making sure that prospective puppy owners know what they're in for.

    The trouble with deliberate cross breeds and pet shop puppies is the lack of ethics it usually shows.

    To get "F1" crosses of pure bred dogs (aka pedigree?) means they got the pedigree dogs to breed from from somewhere. So they either lied to the breeder of these dogs - who - if they're ANKC registered - are looking to make sure that their dogs and puppies are only allowed to be bred with other pedigree dogs of the same breed. So they're not going to knowingly sell to someone who plans on crossing. And ANKC breeders cannot sell through pet shops. Pet shops are not great places for puppies - unless someone is taking the puppies home at night. I know personally how distressed my puppy was on her own at night. It's wrong to do that to a puppy.

    So if the breeder has no problems with breaking the ANKC code of ethics - what can you believe about what they say is right or wrong. And in one particular puppy farm case - the nasty generalisations they make about anyone who has their breeding dogs in their own home with them (aka back yard breeders) and ANKC breeders and anyone who objects to the appalling conditions that some breeding dogs are kept in... I can't take anything they say seriously. And would have to consider their strongest claims might also be their biggest lies. Ie if they're willing to lie to ANKC breeders about what they plan to do with their dogs - they don't really consider being truthful important.

    Theoretically it's possible to have a breeder - choosing two dogs and getting them checked (DNA tests, hip xrays under general anaesthetic etc), and then mating them to meet demand for popular cross breeds and "hybrid vigor" - but you always have to ask the question about where did these two dogs come from?

    Accidents happen - nobody is perfect (who left that gate/door open?) - and those bitsas - often end up in the rescues, shelters, and internet ads. And those cross breeds - because the dogs chose each other - not the breeder - can often have good genes. Ie part of the chemistry of "love" includes being attracted to those with complementary genetics.

    And those puppies - the best places to get them including from RSPCA and AWL are on petrescue.com.au
    and petrecue has rules it enforces about who can list with them, so it's usually a better option than facebook or google.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaus daddy View Post
    I was against pet shops as my last dog i got from a breeder, that was untill i seen Beau in the pet shop.

    Now i cant imagine not having him.
    It is never the dogs fault and Beau is likely a wonderful dog and has a a great owner.

    But you do have to look behing the scenes - what if he came from a puppy farm where his parents live in squalor and misery. What if he had a genetic condition because his parents were untested and you had to spend thousands on him? My friend had a wonderful little dog she got from a pet shop and she had to euathanaise when he was 4 from severe hip dysplasia.

    If your life circumstances changed, you dont have a breeder to help out. I know my breeder takes back her dogs that run into trouble if their owners can no longer care for them whatever reason.

    An ethical breeder ensures their breeding dogs are health tested and cared for and that the puppies never end up in shelters. This gives them their best chance. Our shelters are overflowing with dogs and millions are euthanaised globally. Thousands of dog are in surgery and many dollars spent or euthaniased from genetic conditions that could have been reduced.

    I believe it is our responsibility as humans to do all we can to stem the tide and support breeders who guard against this as best as possible.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 08-21-2012 at 08:03 AM.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    It is never the dogs fault and Beau is likely a wonderful dog and has a a great owner.

    But you do have to look behing the scenes - what if he came from a puppy farm where his parents live in squalor and misery. What if he had a genetic condition because his parents were untested and you had to spend thousands on him? My friend had a wonderful little dog she got from a pet shop and she had to euathanaise when he was 4 from severe hip dysplasia.

    If your life circumstances changed, you dont have a breeder to help out. I know my breeder takes back her dogs that run into trouble if their owners can no longer care for them whatever reason.

    An ethical breeder ensures their breeding dogs are health tested and cared for and that the puppies never end up in shelters. This gives them their best chance. Our shelters are overflowing with dogs and millions are euthanaised globally. Thousands of dog are in surgery and many dollars spent or euthaniased from genetic conditions that could have been reduced.

    I believe it is our responsibility as humans to do all we can to stem the tide and support breeders who guard against this as best as possible.
    This is just a question and please not FLAME (I will wear my flame suit anyway )

    Is it more ethical to purchase a pup from unregistered private seller than the Petshop? me my honest opinion - yes as long as you see both parents of the pup and the family selling the pups.
    m<(o.o)>m

  5. #45
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    I think I'm probably a minority here who doesn't think that is necessarily wrong, pbk. I don't care about ANKC rules etc. Except then for the fact that they have a role in encouraging breeders of purebreds to breed out the genetic defects that were caused by years of inbreeding and lack of regulation.

    But... if they are breeding pups deliberately to sell (which I don't object to perse either), they need to make sure that they select good breeding dogs, and that these don't carry serious genetic faults that they can pass onto the pups. So they need to makes some investments if they are serious about doing the right thing for the pups. And they need to be prepared to wait for the right owners to come along too.

    If it was an accidental litter... well it happens. Though I am in favour of mandatory desexing as there are too many dogs in shelters already.

  6. #46
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    Over the years there has been much in the media to inform the general public about puppy mills but before joining this forum I had never heard the expression 'backyard breeder', and I would guess that it's the same for most Aussies.

    I spent time on the internet learning how to choose a pup before I started looking. There was a lot of information but I don't remember reading anything negative about BYBs. I selected Misha after spending time with a few BYB's litters and their parents and families.
    Fingers crossed that she leads a long and healthy life like most other X bred dogs and dogs from unregistered breeders.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by grevillea47 View Post
    Over the years there has been much in the media to inform the general public about puppy mills but before joining this forum I had never heard the expression 'backyard breeder', and I would guess that it's the same for most Aussies.

    I spent time on the internet learning how to choose a pup before I started looking. There was a lot of information but I don't remember reading anything negative about BYBs. I selected Misha after spending time with a few BYB's litters and their parents and families.
    Fingers crossed that she leads a long and healthy life like most other X bred dogs and dogs from unregistered breeders.
    I am in the same boat as you - I didn't know about this and never thought such thing existed.
    None the less I don't want to hack OP's thread. I am sure OP will find the right pup the their
    family
    m<(o.o)>m

  8. #48
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    Is it more ethical to purchase a pup from unregistered private seller than the Petshop? me my honest opinion - yes as long as you see both parents of the pup and the family selling the pups.
    It's possible the unregistered private seller - has done the health checks and you get to meet the parent dogs - fantastic.

    I have a friend who has a vast array of habits that I don't like who deliberately bred her collie mix to a sbt from down the road - so her daugther could experience the process. ARGH. This friend is a scientist - admittedly more in the field of chemistry than biology but I wasn't real happy about. I guess her argument is what's the difference between humans mating whom they choose (without doing health tests first), and dogs. Erm. Some humans do health checks. Sigh. But there are no rules and there would be outrage if we introduced them and even I think that's nanny state gone too far.

    So backyard breeder where you see the puppies in their home environment with their mother, and maybe meet the father as well, and the whole place is clean and well kept and there are vet certicifcates for vaccination and microchip - and ideally desex... or a desex rebate... etc - not a problem.

    Petshop - I just think is a bad place for a puppy to be, and encourages impulse buys from people who aren't really ready to have a puppy but it's too cute and sad to leave it in the shop - what are you rewarding and encouraging here?

    Same with back yard breeder who is clearly doing it for profit only and makes a whole lot of promises about coat and temperament that they can't keep and there is no parent dog in sight, no vax, no microchip, and the place may or may not be clean. Some puppies are kept in filth until the day they go to the town home shop front - they get a bath and who would know.

    I'd be really pissed at a BYB who sold me a puppy with fleas etc. I'd be reporting them to RSPCA and leaving the puppy there. After all what are you really getting into if you "rescue" one of these $$$ and what are you encouraging by doing that. Better the puppies get confiscated by the RSCPA and then you adopt one from there. That way the BYB doesn't get rewarded for doing the wrong thing.

    I will post the RSPCA link for responsible breeder again.
    What is a responsible companion animal breeder? - RSPCA Australia knowledgebase

    And this has a link to the NSW guidelines for puppy breeders - some of which are enforceable there under their animal welfare act (aka prevention of cruelty) and provide a good guide in what to look for if you do check out a commercial breeder / puppy farm. I don't think the swagman's puppy farm meets the criteria.
    Animal Welfare Code of Practice - Breeding dogs and cats | NSW Department of Primary Industries

  9. #49
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    I am not stuck on the whole ANKC thing either because apart from 2 ANKC registered dogs that are not my working dogs, my real working dogs are from working lines based on their work performance and are not in anyway associated with ANKC.

    However, their breeders take a great deal of care in finding compatible matings, will take a dog back if the need arises, are interested in the performance of their dogs into the future and should any genetic problem arise will test. One of my dogs and a litter mate had mild HD despite the parents being sound working dogs. That is not a breeding the breeder will repeat based on our feedback. She also refunded the purchase price. All her stock have been screened for hips.

    If a backyard breeder really understands what they are doing I have no problem. However my observation is that this is often not the case. They often are clueless about the potential problems or basic things like what constitues a good sound structure in a dog.

    An acquaintance of mine bred her rottie to another "nice looking" rottie. The puppies were well cared for and good homes found for them. However no health checks were done because she had no idea or never heard of HD or ED and yet they are very common in rotties along with several other problems, still sold them for a lot of money. I just know how many of these dogs end up with major problems especially at risk breeds. My specialist vet friends get really fed up with the passing array of problems caused by breedings that havent been researched properly. Makes them money though, trying to fix things surgically that could have been avoided for the most part.

    A registered breeder in the same town spends money doing all the tests and importing sires from overseas to strengthen her lines. I know where I would be spending my money. I know my risks of rottie with a major hip or elbow or other problem will be reduced.

    I had another friend decide her kelpie just had to have pups. She found a mate and the pups were well cared for and homes found. However their mother had a very nervy temperament and quite a few people said that they would steer clear of any pups from that bitch. None of us could understand why she would breed it - simple fact she was totally clueless, and adoring of her dog and wanted it to experience motherhood.

    I met a couple of the pups all grown up and they were basket cases. One owner realised she had major problems and bought the pup to our dog club. When I heard who the dam was I wasnt surprised. The pup grew into a major problem and I felt sorry for the owner who spent many stressful days and likely years ahead dealing with this dog that was genetically not right in the head and despite best efforts remained unresolved. Another pup I heard of was just as bad, I know both owners really battled with the question to euthanaise these dogs. Just awful really.

    Another guy I know bred his dog and had to spend money on a ceasar. Next thing he was advertising the pups in the local paper to sell them quick to recover the cost of the ceasar. sigh

    On face value the first 2 seemed nice families, cute puppies, well cared for but potential time bombs in my opinion.

    I just cant understand it when people breed their dogs when they should know that the shelters are overflowing. If they were truly caring or their dogs they wouldnt. I will never breed my dogs that is for sure. It just doesnt seem right somehow.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 08-21-2012 at 07:29 PM.

  10. #50
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    As much as I am against puppy mills, I mean I think Beaus dad did the right thing...Beau was 6 mths old in the pet store. The poor little bugger has had a late start to a good life and i think that had he not been rescued, he would have had a much worse fate. In my eyes he was still a rescue pup..Every pooch needs a good home, regardless where they come from..

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