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Thread: Fear Aggressive

  1. #1
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    Default Fear Aggressive

    Hi Steve. I have already posted this thread a few months ago and got some really good replies. I thought I would re-post here, so you wouldn't miss it and see what your opinions were. I have had a look at Mollinators thread and thought about putting my story in there but didn't want to 'take-away' from her questions. Well here goes...

    A bit about my dog:

    Bailey is a 2 year old American Pit Bull Terrier. She was back-yard bred and was attacked by her mother when she was 5 days old. I hand reared her from then on. I was in a bad relationship up until January this year. He was severely beating Bailey. She is now scared of people...this is something I am slowly working on, and making progress.

    She is a very scared little dog now. She is almost always tense and anxious however I have her on a daily dose of B Vite, made by Troy. Which is used for racing animals or animals that are anxious.

    Bailey and I do Dog obedience at the Para Districts Dog Obedience Club. We go there every Sunday. Bailey is now up to level 3.

    The story:

    Bailey was attacked over the face by another dog on our walk a few months back. She wasn't badly injured however she has a large scar that runs down the bridge of her nose to her bottom lip. The dog latched on and would not let go. Bailey could not react as I had her on the gentle leader.

    Well ever since it happened she has become scared of other dogs but instead of hiding etc she gets nippy and lunges almost as though she figures it is 'bite or be bitten'' situation. THIS IS A BIG NO NO FOR ME!!!! I will not allow it.

    I understand it can be in her breed etc and if she will remain like this well I will just need to manage it however if I can knock this on the head, so to speak, I want to do it ASAP!

    My obedience trainer is working on it with me whilst she is on lead but obviously this is much harder when I'm not at dog obedience. The way she is teaching me to do it is approach another dog, let Bailey get in close, sniff and then pull her away to show her that I am in control NOT her. Works ok but sometimes Bailey reacts before she can even get in close for a sniff. I dont feel in control letting my dog get in close when she could nip or bite.
    People (including myself) are not normally to happy about you approaching their pet with a dog that is lunging, snarling and nipping.

    I have muzzled her and taken her out with friends dogs to see how she reacts. She doesn't bark, growl or hackle up. However as she has minimal defence she tends to rear up on her back legs and 'box' with her front paws, which can be just as lethal as her teeth.

    She is ok with dogs she already knows.


    Any advice would be greatly appreciative

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Kurrajong / Hawkesbury
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeTheDeedNotTheBreed View Post
    Hi Steve. I have already posted this thread a few months ago and got some really good replies. I thought I would re-post here, so you wouldn't miss it and see what your opinions were. I have had a look at Mollinators thread and thought about putting my story in there but didn't want to 'take-away' from her questions. Well here goes...

    A bit about my dog:

    Bailey is a 2 year old American Pit Bull Terrier. She was back-yard bred and was attacked by her mother when she was 5 days old. I hand reared her from then on. I was in a bad relationship up until January this year. He was severely beating Bailey. She is now scared of people...this is something I am slowly working on, and making progress.
    S: This is a difficult situation for a number of reasons, one being that when she was taken from her mum (with good reason) she misses out on learning essential pack and communication skills. These are skills that many trining programs inadvertantly rely on too.

    She is a very scared little dog now. She is almost always tense and anxious however I have her on a daily dose of B Vite, made by Troy. Which is used for racing animals or animals that are anxious.
    S: Is this the Behave paste? with Tryptophan?

    Bailey and I do Dog obedience at the Para Districts Dog Obedience Club. We go there every Sunday. Bailey is now up to level 3.

    The story:

    Bailey was attacked over the face by another dog on our walk a few months back. She wasn't badly injured however she has a large scar that runs down the bridge of her nose to her bottom lip. The dog latched on and would not let go. Bailey could not react as I had her on the gentle leader.
    Well ever since it happened she has become scared of other dogs but instead of hiding etc she gets nippy and lunges almost as though she figures it is 'bite or be bitten'' situation. THIS IS A BIG NO NO FOR ME!!!! I will not allow it.
    S: yes the "offence is the best defence" is very common.

    I understand it can be in her breed etc and if she will remain like this well I will just need to manage it however if I can knock this on the head, so to speak, I want to do it ASAP!
    S: I dont ever really allow myself to get to stuck on breed = behaviour, this is more a species behaviour.

    My obedience trainer is working on it with me whilst she is on lead but obviously this is much harder when I'm not at dog obedience. The way she is teaching me to do it is approach another dog, let Bailey get in close, sniff and then pull her away to show her that I am in control NOT her. Works ok but sometimes Bailey reacts before she can even get in close for a sniff. I dont feel in control letting my dog get in close when she could nip or bite.
    S: Yes look this is a reasonable starting plan, the results though are in the very small details of how your feeling, modd, stress etc and what is being passed onto your dog.

    I have been able to rehab literally hundreds of dog aggressive dogs, manage maybe a thousand more too and I have come down to the fact that to get past management, in which you are issung control / suppression, there needs to be steps in place to redefine the trigger, this means change the value your dog places on other dogs (from negative to positive).

    This story gives you an idea what I do at times.

    People (including myself) are not normally to happy about you approaching their pet with a dog that is lunging, snarling and nipping.
    S: yes I got you there...

    I have muzzled her and taken her out with friends dogs to see how she reacts. She doesn't bark, growl or hackle up. However as she has minimal defence she tends to rear up on her back legs and 'box' with her front paws, which can be just as lethal as her teeth.
    S: My concern with her is over lay of anxiety that may exist a lot to all of the time, this can stop any type of rehab in its tracks and spiral into canine depression.

    When this happens it severly limits rehab (all learning really) and is hard to recover from.

    She is ok with dogs she already knows.
    S: Yes this is most common with FA dogs.


    Any advice would be greatly appreciative
    S: What does she like to do?
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    South Australia
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    Default

    S: This is a difficult situation for a number of reasons, one being that when she was taken from her mum (with good reason) she misses out on learning essential pack and communication skills. These are skills that many trining programs inadvertantly rely on too.

    She still had time with the pack once they were old enough to be separated from their mother. She also still meets up with 2 of her pack mates for play dates.

    S: Is this the Behave paste? with Tryptophan?


    No it is this Vite B 500g - (Troy) - Horse supplies animal and veterinary supplies - AnimalCare
    It has helped considerably, mainly with her stress when being introduced to new people and her overall stress levels



    S: yes the "offence is the best defence" is very common.

    S: I dont ever really allow myself to get to stuck on breed = behaviour, this is more a species behaviour.


    S: Yes look this is a reasonable starting plan, the results though are in the very small details of how your feeling, modd, stress etc and what is being passed onto your dog.

    I have been able to rehab literally hundreds of dog aggressive dogs, manage maybe a thousand more too and I have come down to the fact that to get past management, in which you are issung control / suppression, there needs to be steps in place to redefine the trigger, this means change the value your dog places on other dogs (from negative to positive).

    This story gives you an idea what I do at times.

    Ok so I should use this as well as the 'circles' as a starting point


    S: yes I got you there...

    S: My concern with her is over lay of anxiety that may exist a lot to all of the time, this can stop any type of rehab in its tracks and spiral into canine depression.

    When this happens it severly limits rehab (all learning really) and is hard to recover from.

    Im not sure if I understand you correctly. She is a VERY fast learner when it comes to tricks and general obedience. Her anxiety is a working progress of course.


    S: Yes this is most common with FA dogs.




    S: What does she like to do?

    I dont understand what you mean by the above statement either

    Thank you for the response Steve. Greatly appreciated

  4. #4
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    Kurrajong / Hawkesbury
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeTheDeedNotTheBreed View Post
    S: This is a difficult situation for a number of reasons, one being that when she was taken from her mum (with good reason) she misses out on learning essential pack and communication skills. These are skills that many trining programs inadvertantly rely on too.

    She still had time with the pack once they were old enough to be separated from their mother. She also still meets up with 2 of her pack mates for play dates.
    S: Ok that is something but there could have been some crucial time missing, we will never know though.

    S: Is this the Behave paste? with Tryptophan?


    No it is this Vite B 500g - (Troy) - Horse supplies animal and veterinary supplies - AnimalCare
    It has helped considerably, mainly with her stress when being introduced to new people and her overall stress levels
    S: ok, the use of B group vitamins has been quite successful in treating anxiety in dogs, however what works even better is the addition of Tryptophan. I have been working with Tryptophan and testing results for quite a while now.

    Troy make a paste called Behave, this contains Vitamin B plus Tryptophan. I checked that website and they sell it.

    Behave Paste 250ml - (Troy) - Horse supplies animal and veterinary supplies - AnimalCare

    I used this exact product for a while and whilst I was happy with the results, it did cause stomach upset with a high percentage of dogs. I switched to a product called Calm and have been delighted with this product, we stock this and a lot of people use it with great success.

    You would be better with a supplement that contains Tryptophan.

    S: yes the "offence is the best defence" is very common.

    S: I dont ever really allow myself to get to stuck on breed = behaviour, this is more a species behaviour.


    S: Yes look this is a reasonable starting plan, the results though are in the very small details of how your feeling, modd, stress etc and what is being passed onto your dog.

    I have been able to rehab literally hundreds of dog aggressive dogs, manage maybe a thousand more too and I have come down to the fact that to get past management, in which you are issung control / suppression, there needs to be steps in place to redefine the trigger, this means change the value your dog places on other dogs (from negative to positive).

    This story gives you an idea what I do at times.

    Ok so I should use this as well as the 'circles' as a starting point
    S: The circle style movement is a pressure on pressure off system like the one your using, however the sharpness of the pressure change isnt as evident when you circle, the main benefit though was no as much the technique, but the fact that I used the dogs desire to play as a way to show the dog that the aggression is a reward killer.


    S: yes I got you there...

    S: My concern with her is over lay of anxiety that may exist a lot to all of the time, this can stop any type of rehab in its tracks and spiral into canine depression.

    When this happens it severly limits rehab (all learning really) and is hard to recover from.

    Im not sure if I understand you correctly. She is a VERY fast learner when it comes to tricks and general obedience. Her anxiety is a working progress of course.
    S: what I mean is if Canine depression sets in.


    S: Yes this is most common with FA dogs.




    S: What does she like to do?

    I dont understand what you mean by the above statement either
    S: What does your dog like doing? like playing tug? working for food treats? chasing a ball?

    I prefer to switch to counter conditioning by not training just with aggression, but using dogs as a mild distraction at a distance whilst I am doing the thing the dog likes most.

    The benefit or value of the play passes onto the other dogs, like an environmental landmark or concomitant cue. In other words, the other dogs can become part of the reward process.

    This is how rehab takes place the fastest and most effective way.

    Thank you for the response Steve. Greatly appreciated
    S: welcome Judge...
    Last edited by k9force; 07-21-2010 at 10:15 PM.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

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