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Thread: Smack !!!

  1. #81
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    I still reckon they would have learned faster if you'd just said "Oi" and took them straight outside and supervised utnil they went out there and praised that. Chances are even if you catch them in the act - they only learn to hide from you first and avoid punishment that way.

  2. #82
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    I dirnk Bicardi with coke...just to put my two cents in

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Gawd is that You, Bec? I didn't recognise the the Nic. Erm not that you'd guess mine on the Dark side, unless familiar with "Keeping up appearances".

    welcome.

    So back on the "I'll do what I like with my dogs - it's not abuse"...

    Isn't it wrong to punish without first teaching what you do want, and isn't it wrong to punish a dog that is doing nothing wrong right now? If the punishment (applied aversive) does not come during or with in a few seconds of the misdeed - the dog is not going to make the connection.

    Imagine if it happend to you. You were sitting quietly at home and the council ranger suddenly barged in, grabbed you by the neck, dragged you to the toilet and shoved your nose in it. And for good measure growled and yelled at you in some language you didn't understand. What would you learn by that? Would you connect it to the dog poo you didn't pick up on the off lead oval? Wasn't even your dog's poo...

    And it is wrong to say a dog thinks like a naughty teenager. The scientists have measured their thinking/emotional ability to be closer to a 2 year old human when it comes to understanding the consequences of their actions. So as I said before - if a 2 yo human wouldn't understand - the dog won't either. Not that a dog has the same motivations or concepts as a human.

    Dogs' Intelligence On Par With Two-year-old Human, Canine Researcher Says
    I agree with this entirely, but when my dog is punished, it's because he has made the decision to ignore a 'no' command. The whacks never come as a surprise, I always say no first. All my dog has learned is that if he hears me saying no, it doesn't just mean I'm not happy about what he's doing, it means he either stops it or I will stop him.

    Also Bec, I have seen you and Daisy before and I think what you have achieved is beyond amazing, I know within my own heart that I could never own a hound because my personality is just incompatiable with independent breeds. But I will say that having seen how different a beagle is to a doberman, well, I would argue that different training methods might apply. Of course it depends on the individual dogs but they're typically driven by very different things. Sammy wants to work with me, he always wants to be with me, he just woudn't mind calling some of the shots. Now I have seen dobermans that are, as described by their breeders, labradors in doberman clothing, so there are differences within the breed, but Sammy is not one of those. The thing is, beagles are much more independent than dobermans, you punish a beagle well I can't see you getting anywhere because they just don't care - they seem to be more happy being ignored off sniffing in their own world than working with a human. When I only reward Sammy, he oversteps the bounds and becomes too cocky. When I punish him, well I don't need to do much and a simple smack on the shoulder sets him straight. Now I'm totally prepared to accept that maybe I'm doing something wrong, but then at the same time, I have found that when I use a mix of punishment and reward, well I get this nice balanced dog who does what I need him to do but still has a strong and confident personality. We have a set up now where Sammy will offer input and make requests, but they're requests, not demands and if I say no he just accepts it. With the exception of the fact that I can't trust Sammy unsupervised around prey animals (he will even go for camels given a chance), I'm really happy with what we have. I mean we get stopped in the street when I'm practising obedience because people are so impressed so we must be doing something right...
    Last edited by 99bottles; 05-25-2012 at 08:27 AM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bec View Post
    Ok, sure. I'm still not sure how you would assume from my posts that my dogs aren't obedient?

    Daisy's first mock trial (novice) - YouTube
    Well I am impressed...I could only see one missed halt in the figure 8........
    Pets are forever

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    I agree with this entirely, but when my dog is punished, it's because he has made the decision to ignore a 'no' command. The whacks never come as a surprise, I always say no first. All my dog has learned is that if he hears me saying no, it doesn't just mean I'm not happy about what he's doing, it means he either stops it or I will stop him.

    Also Bec, I have seen you and Daisy before and I think what you have achieved is beyond amazing, I know within my own heart that I could never own a hound because my personality is just incompatiable with independent breeds. But I will say that having seen how different a beagle is to a doberman, well, I would argue that different training methods might apply. Of course it depends on the individual dogs but they're typically driven by very different things. Sammy wants to work with me, he always wants to be with me, he just woudn't mind calling some of the shots. Now I have seen dobermans that are, as described by their breeders, labradors in doberman clothing, so there are differences within the breed, but Sammy is not one of those. The thing is, beagles are much more independent than dobermans, you punish a beagle well I can't see you getting anywhere because they just don't care - they seem to be more happy being ignored off sniffing in their own world than working with a human. When I only reward Sammy, he oversteps the bounds and becomes too cocky. When I punish him, well I don't need to do much and a simple smack on the shoulder sets him straight. Now I'm totally prepared to accept that maybe I'm doing something wrong, but then at the same time, I have found that when I use a mix of punishment and reward, well I get this nice balanced dog who does what I need him to do but still has a strong and confident personality. We have a set up now where Sammy will offer input and make requests, but they're requests, not demands and if I say no he just accepts it. With the exception of the fact that I can't trust Sammy unsupervised around prey animals (he will even go for camels given a chance), I'm really happy with what we have. I mean we get stopped in the street when I'm practising obedience because people are so impressed so we must be doing something right...
    You're spot on that there are huge differences within a breed, from dog to dog.

    Before Rosie, I was a Beagle girl, and had the pleasure of knowing 4 othem. My last and 2nd last (Daisy and Blossy) were both incredible sloths that were far more interested in discovering the warmth and snuggle-abilities of human furniture and laps, than being independant sniffers. Daisy though was a stand-out. We had 40 acres of bush that backed onto state forest, and I'd let her out at 7 in the morning, and off she'd go to have a chat to all her native fauna buddies (she was friends with a wallaby! - and a wombat!), and be all Miss Independant - but the second I'd call her, she was 100 miles an hour back to me. Loved nothing more than to curl up in my lap at any time of day or night. Recall - never taught it, but if I was in range, she was right there at my side. Blossy was far less adventurous, but a true snuggler all the same. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I think Blossy may even have been a sloth in a Beagle suit!

    (And both were pedigree doglets)

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    Also Bec, I have seen you and Daisy before and I think what you have achieved is beyond amazing, I know within my own heart that I could never own a hound because my personality is just incompatiable with independent breeds. But I will say that having seen how different a beagle is to a doberman, well, I would argue that different training methods might apply. Of course it depends on the individual dogs but they're typically driven by very different things. Sammy wants to work with me, he always wants to be with me, he just woudn't mind calling some of the shots. Now I have seen dobermans that are, as described by their breeders, labradors in doberman clothing, so there are differences within the breed, but Sammy is not one of those. The thing is, beagles are much more independent than dobermans, you punish a beagle well I can't see you getting anywhere because they just don't care - they seem to be more happy being ignored off sniffing in their own world than working with a human. When I only reward Sammy, he oversteps the bounds and becomes too cocky. When I punish him, well I don't need to do much and a simple smack on the shoulder sets him straight. Now I'm totally prepared to accept that maybe I'm doing something wrong, but then at the same time, I have found that when I use a mix of punishment and reward, well I get this nice balanced dog who does what I need him to do but still has a strong and confident personality. We have a set up now where Sammy will offer input and make requests, but they're requests, not demands and if I say no he just accepts it. With the exception of the fact that I can't trust Sammy unsupervised around prey animals (he will even go for camels given a chance), I'm really happy with what we have. I mean we get stopped in the street when I'm practising obedience because people are so impressed so we must be doing something right...
    Thanks, that's nice of you to say I didn't actually post this vid to deliver a point or anything like that, I was just responding to Kuri_89's misconception my dogs aren't obedient (and Kuri_89 - assuming you've watched the video you're happy to admit you were obviously wrong).

    However no where have I said I disagree with using corrections or punishment. While beagles are not like Dobes and vice versa, Daisy is actually quite a hard ass and has very solid nerves and can show rank behaviour, she is not a soft dog. She's also not the only dog I have trained or handled, I work for a dog trainer and I know a bit about drive work. Physical corrections aren't included in our training in drive programs because we haven't found it necessary. My only question to you was how effective is smacking Sammy around prey items if he still can't work reliably around them? I am not saying he works to a low standard, I wouldn't know, that's why I asked to see a video of him working. But I don't see any reason why a working breed with a high prey drive can't be taught to have reliable obedience around prey items and I don't think you need to use physical corrections to achieve this if the dog can train in drive.

    From what you've said above it sounds more like a problem in how you are using the reward rather than him 'overstepping the boundaries' when you don't smack him. If he has a high value for the reward and you, removing that reward as punishment is going to be more effective than a physical correction.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    Well I am impressed...I could only see one missed halt in the figure 8........
    Thanks, that was our very first time in the ring! Hence my terrible handling which has only marginally improved since that video was filmed LOL

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bec View Post
    Thanks, that was our very first time in the ring! Hence my terrible handling which has only marginally improved since that video was filmed LOL
    LOL....what is it about going into the ring with Judges that effect us so...I happily do Demo's at Million Paws, I go into the ring with a Judge and I am anxious and nervous
    Pets are forever

  9. #89

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    Yeah I agree with you. I am still working really hard on stabilising Sammy around prey items. I just don't know how to make him want the reward I have on offer more than he wants a live bunny. I mean a while ago, I was training with a large club in Adelaide and we all had our dogs in a down stay. A possum ran down a tree and ran across the field. Every dog saw it, Sammy was the only one who stayed in position. That said, he was shaking, he was crying, he was very much on the verge of losing it. But he didn't. Every other dog in our group went for the possum (and some from other groups too), the possum was caught and killed and then a fight broke out over the dead body. I could not generate any interest in any reward items - food or toy, he was staying because he knew I'd be disappointed if he didn't (and he knew just how disappointed I would be because I have punished him for breaking a stay before - even if the punishment is just making him stay longer).

    But let me give you another example because maybe you can help. We were doing an exercise where everyone handled a toy then put the toy in a random location with other random toys. I was using only positive reinforcement. Sammy went and found the toy I had touched instantly and grabbed it, but then, when he saw other dogs grabbing their toys, he got all silly about it and somehow with his body language - like didn't touch another dog, he made it so that the other dogs wouldn't approach their toys anymore. He then went and made a toy pile for me and boy was he proud of himself, he expected massive praise for his efforts. Now most of the group were laughing and I guess I can see the funny side, and I know he was just trying to go above and beyond - I told him to get a toy he got me like 7 toys, but all the other dogs were really upset. Maybe that will just give you a bit of insight into his personality though.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    Yeah I agree with you. I am still working really hard on stabilising Sammy around prey items. I just don't know how to make him want the reward I have on offer more than he wants a live bunny...
    The short, simple answer (I'm at work, lol) is that you cant make Sammy want the reward you have on offer. You must find and have available the reward he wants. Sometimes, you need to get really creative on rewards to identify just what your dog values more highly than that bunny. And sometimes, you go on the the field with quite a few varieties of reward- for different circumstances.

    Always, the dog dictates the reward/ payment!

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