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Thread: Smack !!!

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    There is that word again - DOMINANCE - being used like it is a personality trait. Dominance isn't a personality trait. Dominance is the control of resource that the dog finds valuable. Dominance is fluid and changes depending on the resource in question.

    Ears back against head FYI is not a sign of the dog liking the head pat, that is a sign your dog DOESNT like the head pat but will put up with it from you.


    Couldn't have put it better myself ^^^

    Bec - I will have to get Nell to point me in the direction of the research, I don't have access to it personally.
    Omg I'll take a picture so you can see what I mean, he loves his head pats and if you stop and you were doing a good job you'll get whacked with the paw. He just moves his ears as your hand approaches and pushes his head into your hand. I have never seen Sammy scared to be honest and if you hug him and he likes you, he will wrap his head around your neck to hug you back (and I know they say most dogs don't like to be hugged, I know I've never had one that did before).

    Some dogs are naturally more dominant than others - they consider it to be a more valuable resource and think they have what it takes to get it I guess. We've had a lot of dogs in the family. The 2 GSD's and the doberman have been the most dominant - most likely to not listen to strangers, least likely to roll over when challenged by dogs and/or strangers, the papillons and the rottie have been the most submissive. That is what I am referring to when I say dominant, but maybe what I should say is confidence? You know it's like at our dog training club, some dogs are scared to chase the larger toys and mostly walk with their tail down. So they use tiny feathery toys for those dogs to try engage with them and even lie down on the ground so the dog feels less threatened by the exercise. Sammy will chase anything - you can charge him with a bean bag like I did last night (what was I thinking?) and he will rear up and take you on. They say Sammy would make a good personal protection dog and obviously not all dogs do, so they just have different personalities. I might be misusing the word dominant though because I have seen several debates on the subject and none have ever really been conclusive.

    I am not teaching him self-control, we own dogs not robots. Sammy could never be left to babysit a rabbit, in fact I don't leave him unsupervised with anything. His drives are what give him his fast and flashy responses in obedience that win us the high points - I love that about him. It is up to me to stop him from being in those situations where he can be himself in ways that would be socially unacceptable or worse, dangerous. I am teaching him (well have taught him since he's now passed grade 5 obedience and most parts of a BH title) that he always has to listen to me when I'm there. If I take him out of the house and want to go to breakfast at a nice cafe, I need to know that he's not going to take off after some dog/person/lame seagull etc and sure enough, I have a dog who now just lies under my chair - unless he's managed to seduce the waitress in which case he'll have his head resting on her while she pats him and tells him in a sooky voice that she shouldn't be patting dogs whilst working...

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    Sammy will chase anything - you can charge him with a bean bag like I did last night (what was I thinking?) and he will rear up and take you on. They say Sammy would make a good personal protection dog and obviously not all dogs do, so they just have different personalities. I might be misusing the word dominant though because I have seen several debates on the subject and none have ever really been conclusive.
    Having a high prey drive isn’t the same as being dominant.

    I am not teaching him self-control, we own dogs not robots. Sammy could never be left to babysit a rabbit, in fact I don't leave him unsupervised with anything. His drives are what give him his fast and flashy responses in obedience that win us the high points - I love that about him. It is up to me to stop him from being in those situations where he can be himself in ways that would be socially unacceptable or worse, dangerous. I am teaching him (well have taught him since he's now passed grade 5 obedience and most parts of a BH title) that he always has to listen to me when I'm there. If I take him out of the house and want to go to breakfast at a nice cafe, I need to know that he's not going to take off after some dog/person/lame seagull etc and sure enough, I have a dog who now just lies under my chair - unless he's managed to seduce the waitress in which case he'll have his head resting on her while she pats him and tells him in a sooky voice that she shouldn't be patting dogs whilst working...
    But if you use that drive to your advantage you wouldn’t any problems calling him off rabbits etc. I don’t see how that is making him robotic? The example you gave that I quote wasn’t about his behaviour around prey items when you aren’t there but when you were there and he did get out of control and you smack him to try to get control back. I find it quite odd that you’ll happily hit him to try to control him when he goes into prey drive etc but you’re averse to using that drive to teach him self control and how to obey commands when highly aroused. If he does actually have a high prey drive that shouldn’t be hard to do at all and you wouldn’t need to use any physical corrections to achieve it. I have honestly never come across someone who thinks teaching a dog to have some self control is a bad thing. And certainly, having a dog that can obey commands in drive when highly aroused would help not hinder your obedience training.

    I’d love to see video of Sammy working if you have any
    Last edited by Bec; 05-24-2012 at 12:05 PM.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    They are different but often use to curb similar unwanted behaviours.
    Maybe, but a training method or tool is only as effective as the person using it, and what works for one dog and handler may not work for another which is why I try to avoid blanket statements like ‘x is more effective than y’.

    I wasn't saying dominance is resource guarding, I said it is the control of a resource. I don't mean by aggressive or physical means. I agree a dog that guards is not what I would deem to be a "leader" or dominant over that resource, it means they are insecure. A dog who is in control of the resource doesn't need to guard it because they can get it when they want.
    This is where people get it wrong, they think they have to be aggressive or physical with their dog to prove they are the "leader" when in fact to the dog it just makes you look insecure because leaders don't need to use physical force or aggression to lead. All you need to do to be the leader is control the resources, which is easy enough, we control a dogs whole life including when they eat, what they eat, how much they eat, water access, bedding and sleeping spots, toys and playtime etc and we don't need to do it with force.
    I don’t disagree with you there

  4. #54
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    Oh wow i missed out on all the drama! God damn my necessity of sleep!
    No one loves you like your dog does.

  5. #55

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    I think (well I know) I have a few weaknesses as a trainer because to date, I have not been able to use his prey drive to stop him wanting rabbits. He has caught them before and it sends him over the moon. He gets very into games with us and as he has low food drive, I usually use toys in training, but if a rabbit came onto the field on examination day, I would lose points if not fail I would be able to keep Sammy at my side off-lead, but he would probably be whining and shaking and we'd just have to wait until he got himself together again, which would be when the rabbit disappeared.

    I wasn't using Sammy's crazy prey drive (have you heard the story of how he did 6 runs at the lure coursing place?) as an example of his dominance, I was just using it to show how different dogs can be (as I know dogs that would cower if you charged at them roaring with a bean bag) and so I'm not always convinced that a particular training method will be equally effective on all dogs. I have never seen a thread where everyone agreed on what dominance was, but the way Sammy struts with his tail and head high and the way other dogs follow him, sniffing where he sniffs etc just always makes me think that he is a dominant dog. He has never submitted, which might just make him stupid...

    I would love to teach him self-control without ruining his personality, but all the best dogs at our training club don't really have self-control (we are a dogsports club). They learn over years to respect their owners as that's the only way to the reward, but you wouldn't leave the dogs alone on the field together... Our best trainer has scars from his dog (some fresh) and yet it's the best dog in the club - according to international judges the dog could compete at a global standard.

  6. #56
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    seans thread are always good for a debate....... so long as it isnt done in mass......,.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    I love 2 things in this world. Spandex and reyzor... not necessarily in that order.

  7. #57
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    I bet Sean opened a beer, made himself some popcorn and sat back in his comfy chair with the laptop after he posted that.

    Well I will be the first one to admit that if I ever use any physical sort of threat I realise that I only felt it necessary because I had not been consistent enough with enforcing behaviours.

    I actually pushed Banjo down today because she ignored me when I called her when she was chasing galahs and I had to go get her. I think if I'd be more consistent in my reactions I wouldn't feel the need to do this, but it is my way of letting her know we are entering a time of zero tolerance and any hesitation in following cues will be treated as a serious offence. Which just means that I will put her on the lead immediately if she doesn't come on the first call or ignores a leave or whatever after that. It is my mistakes for sometimes allowing her second chances or being slack with following through.

    I still don't hurt her but it is a standover technique that is a result of my imperfection as a dog trainer. And I don't feel particularly bad about it because I'm only human. And I know how far I can go without truly scaring her. I hate it when she grovels...

    It very rarely happens too. If I would do it often, I am sure it would have absolutely no effect at all. Now it does get a "Oops, she looks angry, better pay attention" kind of reaction.

  8. #58
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    It was a can of Scotch and coke Beloz. LOL.


    Quote Originally Posted by reyzor View Post
    Education is important, but big biceps are more importanter ...
    DONT SIC YOUR DOGMA ON ME !

  9. #59
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    i went to the local bowls club with a girlfriend today, had a couple of light beers with my lunch, a yummy chicken schnitzel and chips, then got home, enjoy reading these controversial threads lol, quite entertaining...I know Jack squat about obedience, so I don't have much else to say lol. Kids have swimming lessons soon, so I will have to get an update again after that lol.

  10. #60
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    I don't know why I'm shocked to read that some people still rub noses in toilet training mistakes or treat aggression problems with aggression. I shouldn't be but I am.

    The person who said if you are going to physically correct a dog make sure you are committed is 100% right, much like using a check chain - don't nag. But the dog is remembering that the punishment is outweighing the self reward.

    Guilt and dogs don't go together.

    New methods are just that, they are new methods trialled and proven to be much more effective than older outdated ones. How do I know this? Because I've used both and am now in the corner of the new methods.

    We are not dealing with children where we can say, don't do it again or you'll get a smack or that smack was for such and such.

    No I'm not a dog whisperer, but I do have a Certificate III in Dog Behaviour and Training, have titled dogs in CD, CDX and UD, work in training kennels & own more than just a few dogs & have raised more than just a few litters all going to their new homes toilet trained by about 9 weeks of age.

    I wouldn't knock the new methods until you've put them to the test, there has to be a reason why top triallers and trainers have swapped to them.

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