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Thread: Smack !!!

  1. #41

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    I havent read all the replies I cant be bothered right now. So please take into account my reply has nothing to do with anything else but the first post.

    Firstly - For something like a smack to work, it HAS to hurt, if it doesn't hurt then the dog is not motivated to NOT perform the behaviour again. The pain has to be hard enough that the behaviour is no longer rewarding enough to continue.
    Ie: your dog is a counter surfer and steals food, every time you catch them doing it you give them a light smack on the butt, this won't prevent your dog from counter surfing again as the pain isn't enough to not warrant jumping on the counter for food.

    If I catch my dogs in the act of a naughty behavior they get timed out, I remove them from my presence and isolate them away from their family, this works and has been proven to be more effective then shock collars.

    Sorry but if you dog is being aggressive towards children then either the child is provoking the dog or the dog is not comfortable around children, then the dog shouldn't be around children fullstop. You can't punish the dog for say growling because even though you see it as being aggressive, the dog sees it as he or she following the appropriate levels of escalation/warning when they are uncomfortable and want to create distance with the thing that makes them uncomfortable or stressed.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuri_89 View Post
    Dog's definitely know the concept of right and wrong!

    I see it in my own - if they do something wrong, they know. They walk around with this guilty look or try and kiss my ass when i decide to ignore them. I don't expect my dogs to think like a human - because they are dogs! but i think they are more intelligent than your giving them credit for - well mine maybe anyway
    How can dogs know what we as humans deem right or wrong? They read our body language and can react to that, but if they know the difference between right and wrong why would they keep doing things we consider “wrong”? Often when people think their dog knows a behaviour is ‘wrong’ the dog has simply learnt not to perform that behaviour in front of the owner because they know they will be punished for it, not that the behaviour itself is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    I don't expect my dog to think like a person. It's not about making him feel that eating shoes/furniture/electrical cables/the cat is wrong, it's about making him understand that I, his best friend and person from whom everything he needs in life comes from, disagree with certain behaviours. Now, I agree that techniques that incorporate punishment do put pressure on the dog, but if smacking your dog a few times without actually hurting the animal 'ruins' the dog and sends it into a shell from which it can never be coaxed well, I would argue that was a ruined dog to begin with. I know all dogs are individuals and so yes, if you rescue a dog you may need to revise your training methods. But a well-bred dog that has never suffered abuse should have more character and resilience than that. I have met well-bred dogs that have suffered terrible abuse and still turn around just fine when they get a new owner - after a week you could never even tell that they spent the last year of their life tied in a back yard and get beaten at least once a week. I have tried all positive reinforcement and ended up with a situation where my dog was calling the shots. He still loved me and still often did what I asked, but it was on his terms so it wasn't reliable. That is dangerous (with any dog but particularly large ones) and restricted what I could do and where I could go with him. You guys know your dogs and you're the ones who have to live with them. If the dog is not unhappy, don't judge, the person needs to create a dog they want to have around.
    99Bottles I’m not sure where I said smacking ruins dogs or that you should never give your dog a correction? I have a dog here you could smack or scream in her face and she wouldn’t care because she’s a hardass. The post of mine you have quoted said nothing about punishment.

    However I don’t think there is ever an instance where hitting your dog is appropriate (unless in self defence) and I have never seen it used in a way that I feel is effective as a training method. I am more than happy to use corrections in training if I feel it is appropriate, but corrections should be emotionless and not given out of the handler’s frustration or anger. IMO it’s not about telling my dog I “disagree” with her behaviour, why would she care if I disagree with her especially if it’s a behaviour she finds rewarding? It’s about teaching them what behaviours are and are not rewarding for them. Dogs don’t do anything to please us, they do everything to please themselves.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    If I catch my dogs in the act of a naughty behavior they get timed out, I remove them from my presence and isolate them away from their family, this works and has been proven to be more effective then shock collars.
    Really? Can you show me that research K&P I haven't seen it myself?

  4. #44
    Join Date
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    All hail Bec the dog whisperer. LOL

    How can dogs know what we as humans deem right or wrong? They read our body language and can react to that, but if they know the difference between right and wrong why would they keep doing things we consider “wrong”? Often when people think their dog knows a behaviour is ‘wrong’ the dog has simply learnt not to perform that behaviour in front of the owner because they know they will be punished for it, not that the behaviour itself is wrong.
    And that's just a dog thing? Don't tell me your parents said 'no you can't do that' and you didn't go and do it behind their back anyway. Dog's are master manipulators, the same way teenagers are. Boy don't your dog/dogs have you wrapped around their finger!

    [QUOTEIf the dog is not unhappy, don't judge, the person needs to create a dog they want to have around.][/QUOTE]

    Love the way you put it 99. I agree 100%

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuri_89 View Post
    All hail Bec the dog whisperer. LOL

    And that's just a dog thing? Don't tell me your parents said 'no you can't do that' and you didn't go and do it behind their back anyway. Dog's are master manipulators, the same way teenagers are. Boy don't your dog/dogs have you wrapped around their finger!
    LOL, definitely not a "dog whisperer"...

    No, the point is that they don’t have a moral compass or the ability to think like we do in order to know when something is wrong. Dogs aren’t people, why would they behave like us? Assuming that dogs think and feel like we do is IMO the height of human arrogance. We do a disservice to them by treating them as anything other than dogs.

    Dogs do things to please themselves, either because something is rewarding or to avoid correction. They aren’t out to get us, they don’t sit around all day plotting about how to manipulate us or sneak around behind our backs (it is absurd to think they would). My dogs don’t have me wrapped around their paws at all, what makes you think they would? Because I said they don’t think like people and don’t know right from wrong? Dogs know simply what is rewarding for them and what is not.

    Maybe you could show us some videos of your dogs working so we can see for ourselves how well trained they are?

  6. #46

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    Dogs don't have a moral compass, but they can work out what makes us happy and what has the opposite effect. I smack my dog but I don't hurt him and god help anyone who did hurt my dog. But I make sure he knows I am angry and not happy with his behaviour. I don't believe that for a smack to be effective it needs to hurt the animal. It really depends on the dog, Sammy is a drivey, confident and dominant dog and so sometimes when he's in the 'zone' - looking hungrily at someone's cat or super proudly at another male dog in a way that I just know is going to piss that dog off, he can't always hear me and he doesn't always want to. Some dogs have less drive - if you have seen Sammy at lure coursing you'll see what I mean. I do not think there is ever an excuse to hurt a dog except for in self-defense but there is a difference between physically punishing your dog and hurting your dog. If I pick up a stick, Sammy thinks I'm going to throw it for him. If I raise my hand, he prepares his head for patting (puts the ears down so he gets maximum contact). But if I tell him no and he ignores me and he then gets a whack on the shoulder, well that shakes him out of his defiance and we can continue going forward and he knows why it happened.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    Dogs don't have a moral compass, but they can work out what makes us happy and what has the opposite effect.
    I can guarantee you that your dog has never done anything to make you happy. To get praise and reward from you because he finds those things rewarding – sure. But not for the purpose of making you happy.

    I smack my dog but I don't hurt him and god help anyone who did hurt my dog. But I make sure he knows I am angry and not happy with his behaviour. I don't believe that for a smack to be effective it needs to hurt the animal. It really depends on the dog, Sammy is a drivey, confident and dominant dog and so sometimes when he's in the 'zone' - looking hungrily at someone's cat or super proudly at another male dog in a way that I just know is going to piss that dog off, he can't always hear me and he doesn't always want to. Some dogs have less drive - if you have seen Sammy at lure coursing you'll see what I mean. I do not think there is ever an excuse to hurt a dog except for in self-defense but there is a difference between physically punishing your dog and hurting your dog. If I pick up a stick, Sammy thinks I'm going to throw it for him. If I raise my hand, he prepares his head for patting (puts the ears down so he gets maximum contact). But if I tell him no and he ignores me and he then gets a whack on the shoulder, well that shakes him out of his defiance and we can continue going forward and he knows why it happened.
    How effective is smacking him in teaching him self control when in prey drive or how to respond to your commands when he’s highly aroused? A correction aversive enough could knock him out of drive, but when a dog is in peak levels of arousal giving a correction is not going to be effective in teaching the dog anything.

  8. #48

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    There is that word again - DOMINANCE - being used like it is a personality trait. Dominance isn't a personality trait. Dominance is the control of resource that the dog finds valuable. Dominance is fluid and changes depending on the resource in question.

    Ears back against head FYI is not a sign of the dog liking the head pat, that is a sign your dog DOESNT like the head pat but will put up with it from you.

    No, the point is that they don’t have a moral compass or the ability to think like we do in order to know when something is wrong. Dogs aren’t people, why would they behave like us? Assuming that dogs think and feel like we do is IMO the height of human arrogance. We do a disservice to them by treating them as anything other than dogs.
    Couldn't have put it better myself ^^^

    Bec - I will have to get Nell to point me in the direction of the research, I don't have access to it personally.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    There is that word again - DOMINANCE - being used like it is a personality trait. Dominance isn't a personality trait. Dominance is the control of resource that the dog finds valuable. Dominance is fluid and changes depending on the resource in question.

    Ears back against head FYI is not a sign of the dog liking the head pat, that is a sign your dog DOESNT like the head pat but will put up with it from you.



    Couldn't have put it better myself ^^^

    Bec - I will have to get Nell to point me in the direction of the research, I don't have access to it personally.
    Ok that would be super, thanks. Not saying whether I agree or disagree, but if the research is out there to compare the effectiveness of those two methods I’d be very interested to read it. They are both such difference ‘tools’ and can be used in such completely different ways. I’ve used an e-collar but I will also time out. Two very different things IMO and a bit odd to compare them.

    I actually don’t agree that dominance is about resource guarding. Resource guarding is generally an insecure behaviour, not displayed by truly dominant or rank dogs. I do believe dominance exists in dogs, and whilst it is rare to find a truly dominant or rank dog, they are out there, and they are born that way and no training will change that temperament.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bec View Post
    Ok that would be super, thanks. Not saying whether I agree or disagree, but if the research is out there to compare the effectiveness of those two methods I’d be very interested to read it. They are both such difference ‘tools’ and can be used in such completely different ways. I’ve used an e-collar but I will also time out. Two very different things IMO and a bit odd to compare them.

    I actually don’t agree that dominance is about resource guarding. Resource guarding is generally an insecure behaviour, not displayed by truly dominant or rank dogs. I do believe dominance exists in dogs, and whilst it is rare to find a truly dominant or rank dog, they are out there, and they are born that way and no training will change that temperament.
    They are different but often use to curb similar unwanted behaviours.

    I wasn't saying dominance is resource guarding, I said it is the control of a resource. I don't mean by aggressive or physical means. I agree a dog that guards is not what I would deem to be a "leader" or dominant over that resource, it means they are insecure. A dog who is in control of the resource doesn't need to guard it because they can get it when they want.
    This is where people get it wrong, they think they have to be aggressive or physical with their dog to prove they are the "leader" when in fact to the dog it just makes you look insecure because leaders don't need to use physical force or aggression to lead. All you need to do to be the leader is control the resources, which is easy enough, we control a dogs whole life including when they eat, what they eat, how much they eat, water access, bedding and sleeping spots, toys and playtime etc and we don't need to do it with force.

    I also agree *some* dogs can be born as a truly dominant dog but they are few and far between.

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