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Thread: Muffy the Mad

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    However.....the fact are facts. Learned behaviour or not. The reasons become quite moot after teeth are placed on human skin with intent.

    Dogs such as this have no place in Rescue or Rehoming.
    That's the bottom line.
    Its a life philosophy thing though right? - I actually agree with you on a purely mathematical/rational level. Too many homeless dogs, some of them very unfortunately will not find homes, and humans will have to find a way to resolve the issue of over crowded shelters and stray dogs.

    If we are going to attempt to rehome then obviously its better to rehome the ones without problems. But (to make an extreme comparison) - I wouldn't advise not rehoming a fear aggressive 7 year old homeless human because he/she's been in a few fights. That's because I'm human, and I have an instinct to protect my kin. However, rationally, I have no reason to believe that humans are any more deserving of life on earth than any other animal is. Advising the death of an animal that has not caused significant harm (and muffy hasnt) would cause a serious conflict within me, especially one that is shaping up to be be a better pet than many other successfully rehomed animals. I'm quite glad its not my responsibility to run a shelter.

  2. #92
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    I understand where you are coming on with the BSL implications, I truly do. But to try fight BSL with the argument that all dog bites are the same is just completely unrealistic and frankly I do not think it is all that good for the cause. Especially as BSL is NOT just about size – there are dogs with much larger jaws than APBTs that are never mentioned in relation to BSL. Yes all dogs should be treated equal. Yes, all dog owners should be held responsible for the training and socialisation of their dogs. But to deny that little dogs and big dogs are quite different creatures is just not going to convince anyone who favours BSL. We must win the argument by pointing out that the owner is responsible for the dogs’ behaviour and that there is overwhelming evidence that any breed can be totally safe if the owner does the right thing. We must argue that to prevent serious and fatal dog bite incidents, ALL owners must be made to train and socialise their dogs - and I really do not see a need to differentiate between little dogs and big dogs here, because there are other advantages that are more to do with the dog’s well being.

  3. #93

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    In some areas I guess it does come down to life philosophy but in others it is still very much a sheer 'realistic' view.

    You have to also bear in mind that you are seeing this dog through a responsible,experienced,educated dog persons eyes.
    The family she might be homed to may not be....even just one member of that family being not dog savvy or quick thinking/reactive enough ( children come to mind as do the elderly-no offence meant to anybody) could result in harm and that just is not acceptable knowing that several people knew this dogs past.
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  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    I understand where you are coming on with the BSL implications, I truly do. But to try fight BSL with the argument that all dog bites are the same is just completely unrealistic and frankly I do not think it is all that good for the cause. Especially as BSL is NOT just about size – there are dogs with much larger jaws than APBTs that are never mentioned in relation to BSL. Yes all dogs should be treated equal. Yes, all dog owners should be held responsible for the training and socialisation of their dogs. But to deny that little dogs and big dogs are quite different creatures is just not going to convince anyone who favours BSL. We must win the argument by pointing out that the owner is responsible for the dogs’ behaviour and that there is overwhelming evidence that any breed can be totally safe if the owner does the right thing. We must argue that to prevent serious and fatal dog bite incidents, ALL owners must be made to train and socialise their dogs - and I really do not see a need to differentiate between little dogs and big dogs here, because there are other advantages that are more to do with the dog’s well being.
    I really don't want to turn this into a BSL thread but just need to point out that its just not the APBT thats been targeted and many other large breed dogs have certainly been mentioned and thought of.

    And you're dead right at the end of your post - there should be no difference between 'small' and 'large' dogs.
    And if the dogs well being over rides the fact that it has bitten a person,not once but several times.....well then I will just sadly shake my head and walk away....
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    I understand you too Cav - tis great when the world turns apon it's axis correctly

    However , I wills till have to disagree about 'little' verse 'big' dog safety in the community
    I understand your issues with the BSl chops, and agree with you 100% I love big dogs and dont wanna see em get a bad wrap either.

    Tis the owners who create the fear by owning dogs not properly trained and socilaized, not the dogs, any breed can be a loving and gentle member of the family.
    Which is why i would like to believe one day "the world will turn apon it's axis correctly" , and those dogs who are not a threat to the community big or small...., will find someone Bel and andrew to give them another chance.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  6. #96

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    Andrew if it were a perfect world ALL dog owners would have a basic understanding of canine behaviour. But the reality is we have people having babies who have no basic understanding of humans. And lets be honest some of us had a basic understanding and then ended up with something completely left of centre! I think you may have to dream on with that wish .... we have to do a bit more damage to our world before we can start practicing common sense.

    I still hope you and bel keep the dog. How much would you hate me if I started a petition.............. (I am joking - maybe!!!!)

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    I really don't want to turn this into a BSL thread but just need to point out that its just not the APBT thats been targeted and many other large breed dogs have certainly been mentioned and thought of.

    And you're dead right at the end of your post - there should be no difference between 'small' and 'large' dogs.
    And if the dogs well being over rides the fact that it has bitten a person,not once but several times.....well then I will just sadly shake my head and walk away....
    But not ALL large breeds, CC.

    I don't get the attitude that all dog bites are equally bad just as much as you don't seem to get my attitude that little dogs and big dogs are quite different creatures and their bites have different consequences. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I think.

  8. #98

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    I shouldn't be back here, cos I can feel hackles from the screen. but even tho it may not be welcomed by the defendant, I'm on her side, here. We know the fosterer did almost everything wrong, in good hearted ignorance, to make matters, worse. If I am going to be really cynical, and score a laugh from Sean and an intake of disapproval, from many, anyone who loves that breed, EXPECTS them to be vile to the household. They seem to be a pack of masochists.

    Some can change to grumpy angels. If you demanded all maltese that snarled and bit, were put down, they'd be fighting to keep the breed in existance. If the prospecive new homes got any other maltese from the paper, they'd probably get the same problems, without the advice and follow up. Some dogs can't be trusted, and I keep them. Like Newfsie, I know I can give them a good life, and with my or part of my family, they function and they are happy.

    I do see Choppas point with big dogs and the world of dog pain that caused it makes me want to cry. I do wonder, with those terribly damaged dogs, did they go to a woman only household? I can understand, with the mad, evil men around the biggies, whether they may have settled, in a quiet, peaceful, female household. Or only reached by women, to rehab. So often, I see dogs put down, because an owner/traner can't reach them. It's said they cannot be rehabbed. So often, the truth is NOT BY THEM.

    However, I have to say, very rarely, I've felt a big dog look at me, and I have felt damned glad that dog had nothing to do with me.

    I think Pawfectionist has done a great job so far. I think she'll give the applicants an excruciating interview, lectures, and a demand they pay in advance for some personal coaching and if that booking isn't kept, they had better go into witness protection. They will know, if it begins to slide, she is a phone call away.

  9. #99
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    May 2012
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    I know I'm dreaming about having a general knowledge for everyone.. Collectively humans don't often do things that are too intelligent until it really hits the fan and its simply unavoidable. I doubt that dog bites will ever be so common, or dog behaviour generally will ever have a significant enough impact on our society to demand action that would actually work.. unfortunately.

    ....

    That aside - here's a novel question. Say we all just assume for a second that its 100% achieveable to rehome a fear agressive dog that is far worse than muffy is.

    What would the process for that look like? What tests need to be conducted? ..I was just saying to bel that I think Muffy should not be made available for adoption until she has had test runs with different foster carers, who sign off understanding there is a potential danger. So that the experience of a few non-dog professionals can be taken into account where there is no obligation for them to keep her long term. These people would obviously need instruction as well...

    I also previously said her adoption fee should be higher and include compulsory sessions with Bel or another suitably qualified trainer. But in saying that the foster organisation already offers free behaviour consults for the 1st month post adoption.

    Any more ideas?

    Lets just forget the practicality of it on a large scale, or any costs that may be involved, or that people may even get bitten in the process. Just - How would you make this work ultimately? and lets not have any "its not possible" ideas. Maybe its not, but if it is you're not going to find the solution without trying to.

  10. #100

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    Question (not a judgement) Wouldn't moving Muffy around to different foster carers be kind of disruptive and confusing for her?

    From the dumb, inexperienced chic who broke her wrist getting a spoon stuck in the mix master (you are now getting the picture) I think Muffy needs a buddy (dog kind). Someone she loves, trusts, follows (as in good behaviour) and, most of all, feels safe with. She doesn't seem to be too trusting of people and appears to have been let down by some of us bastard humans so maybe her faith can be healed within her own kind.

    I work in wildlife rescue and we find a buddy tends to "fix" most things. Sounds rather simplistic but it really works for us (remembering though Muffy is not a wild animal).
    Last edited by ratbag jrt; 05-21-2012 at 01:11 PM.

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