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Thread: Show dog questions.

  1. #51
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    most here aren't registered breeders who are interested in the changes that are coming about or are registered breeders who flout the current rules
    I would say most of us aren't breeders - but we are interested in the long term health and welfare of our own dog and dogs in general and all of us didn't like what we saw on that BBC documentary.

    As for registered breeders who flout the rules - I think we've had one join up but she hasn't posted. Other breeders eg ones that are not doing the health testing - have left of their own accord - I admit we don't make them feel all that welcome. Don't confuse this site with that other one where any dodgy breeder can list their puppies. I don't see great lists of puppy mill ads here.

    I know of at least one human community that is very inbred - and doing ok so long as they kept it that way, but the 2nd Gen Aussies have a hard time with the limtied choice - so tend not to. Overall genetic diversity works better in the long run. Inbreeding requires great caution. The main reason would be to work with a known gene pool. But if breeders knowingly breed with dogs of dodgy health - and win prizes with them - it can ruin the whole breed. It really pays to do your research. From many sources - not just the puppy mill website.

  2. #52

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    Who said that all purebreds aren't healthy? It's just there are a lot of people breeding pure (maybe it's just in my breed) who in my opinion, aren't doing the right things by their dogs. And as for linebreeding, you may be avoiding it, but that's just you. I admire plenty of people who breed pure - I know who I would go to buy a pure labrador, a pure cavalier, pure GSP and the list goes on. This year alone I have convinced several people to buy from reputable, ethical breeders and they've all been purebreds. I only really know one breeder who I consider to be ethical who doesn't breed pure and I'm well aware - as the owner of one of her puppies, that they're not suitable for most homes (I just don't think it's impossible or a bad thing).

    It's just there are lots of people under that same banner (registered breeders who show that is) who are breeding brother to sister, breeding dogs that already have signs of wobblers, breeding dogs that deviate so strongly from the standard in terms of temperament I find it appalling - and that's just in dobermans. Public perception is what it is. I don't understand why it's not something you guys want to discuss in more detail. The thing is, we know byb's are bad, but they typically don't proclaim to be anything and nobody gives it much thought. It's been going on for centuries - friend owns a dog you like, dog has puppies, you want one of those puppies. Some people are puppy farmers and that's a whole other kettle of fish that I won't even go into. But registered breeders claim to be above the rest, they claim that their dogs are superior and you pay more for them. So of course, when your dog gets sick, when it doesn't perform as expected you're more likely to be disappointed. There are some registered breeders that truly are producing these superior dogs, I have met some myself. But many sadly are not.

    And then there's the separate issue of how certain dogs are 'evolving' in the show ring. Whippets are not a breed ever mentioned in these discussions and there's a reason for that - Whippets are also one of a few purebreeds that tend to out-live cross-breeds, regardless of their heritage, so I'm not surprised that this has been your experience. Some breeds are in much better shape than others. The dogs with average lifespans today of under 10 years, the ones who can no longer run properly, breathe properly etc - they are the ones we have the most concern for.

  3. #53
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    Mac - Not one person in this thread, here has attcked you personally, nor your breeding practices. Im really not sure why the disscussion of genetics, or ANKC regulations upsets you so much, but is definately not the intention to upset anyone.
    I did ask you a few questions earlier, trying to gauge your thoughts as to what subjects to stay away from, but you didnt answer them.

    As to your repeated assumption that beacuse i am registered, yet choose the flout the very (reponsible) rules of the ANKC?, by not registering puppies, that I am somehow a lessor person than you.

    Well because I dont know you, I wont make that assumption.

    Again, I am registered, for the sole purpose of keeping informed with breed and health related issues and do choose to "flout"the rules and not to register my beautifully bred,FULLY HEALTH TESTED and assessed, healthy purebred puppies (only 2 litters, in 6 years) as I dont show, and dont agree with certain aspects of the institution in general, but VERY interested in the future of purebred dogs in general.

    That is just my personal view, I prefer to concentrate on my healthy companion animals, which I am just as passionate about as you are with showing.
    Does that make me a back yard breeder or lessor person than you?
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  4. #54
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    I do know that the ANKC has banned mother to son and father daughter and sibling matings - which I think is a good thing. But cousins are still in, and uncle to niece or aunt to nephew, and I think grandparent to grand child is allowed. Which just sounds creepy from a human point of view. It is a risky thing to do if there are any dodgy genes in that gene pool. It's the sort of thing that leads to the trouble that Dalmatians are in.

    And my cousin the cattle breeder won't do it. And he just one a championship prize for one of his bulls. So you can show, breed, and run healthy lines without inbreeding. It's the people who persist in breeding dogs they know have health problems or have puppies with health problems - that I think should be stopped.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 03-20-2012 at 04:55 PM. Reason: efs

  5. #55

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    I frequent another dog forum that's quite popular, although I don't really belong there due to the fact that I disagree entirely with the forum's values but anyway, one thing that's always of interest to me... There's a recurring theme there of threads in their breeders community and in general where they either ask for help with birthing and/fertility complications or bash people in general for thinking that they can make a profit from selling their puppies for so much. They say that even when they sell their puppies for $1000's they make a loss because of all the costs incured. Well there's the fact that the natural matings don't take so they need 2 servings of AI, and then they need Cesar's and then there's only 1 pup anyway etc etc. I really can't be the only one who looks at that and thinks that maybe it's so hard for a reason? Like if breeding pure and linebreeding/inbreeding were so good for the animals why are we seeing this incidence of inbreeding depression? They also get angry at the BYB's who they are sure are making huge profits because they just put 2 dogs together and have 10 puppies to sell and even though they might sell them for less their costs are so low they come out on top. Does no-one else look at this and feel that something must be wrong?

    I don't know. I have been a member of that forum for like 3 years now, and have seen so many cases of this (none whippets though) - anyone who is interested should have a look, I won't say the name here, but I know a lot of people here are members there - it's a forum for purebred dogs only. Just a little more food for thought.

  6. #56
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    that other forum don't mind if you have a desexed bitsa - same as Dogs SA...

    It is vaguely annoying that I couldn't compete my bitsa in their agiltiy stuff if she wasn't desexed, so even if she was brilliant at that, I couldn't get puppies to carry on the brilliance. But I can't imagine wanting to breed anyway - there's plenty more like her where she came from.

    So I'm not precious about pedigrees either - more about responsible breeding and doing the best to ensure healthy long lived dogs.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    I frequent another dog forum that's quite popular, although I don't really belong there due to the fact that I disagree entirely with the forum's values but anyway, one thing that's always of interest to me...
    .
    I dont belong to other forums, but do look in from time to time if i am looking for any info, and understand exactly what your saying.
    It especially irks me when unknowing breeders (responsible or not, usually not), have pregnant or in labour dogs and post seeking information on the best way to deal with a specific situation.
    They are often rudely attacked by some individuals, who's only answer is usually ring your breeder?

    I certainly dont condone the accidental breeding of any animal, but appreciate at least they are looking for advise which has to be in the best interest of the animal, and certainly better than a lot of poor animals in the same situations.
    Isnt this what forums are about...information and welfare of dogs?

    By offering these posters advise in a non judgemental way, you then have the opportunity to foster responsibility in the care for the mum, pups and ultimately spaying, which is not an opinion shared by many over there on the "darkside"
    Like you bottles, I am not precious about x breeding, Breeders of cross breeds can and do, strive to breed healthy, happy companion animals, or working, agility types using ethical means and testing for health issues with the same care and passion as responsible pure bred breeders.
    Of course that responsibilty should encompass more than health, and should include careful selection of breeds, temperments and of course breeding types suitable for specific tasks or families.
    While rescue will always be the first place to look or suggest, more often than not, our shelters are sadly full of high energy types or unsuitable temperments and many have issues from the treatment of previous owners.

    Of course more accidents and careless x breeding occurs by irresponsible breeders.. than responsible breeders but they do exist, and with 2.8 million Australian families owning one or more dogs and the majority x breeds, which includes working breeds, they are here to stay, whether we all like it or not.
    A few years ago, and still now, we have the media hype regarding what is available to purchacers of puppies, byb's, puppy farmers and the registered purebred community,.

    Due to the bad press surrounding puppy farms and more recently some irresponsible registered pure breeders and the research into the health of some purebred lines, welfare orgs are now promoting responsible breeders in general, and that to me is a positive change.
    To me there are only 2 types of breeders those that do the right thing and those that dont...and misleading tags infering otherwise, are just that.. misleading.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    that other forum don't mind if you have a desexed bitsa - same as Dogs SA...

    It is vaguely annoying that I couldn't compete my bitsa in their agiltiy stuff if she wasn't desexed, so even if she was brilliant at that, I couldn't get puppies to carry on the brilliance. But I can't imagine wanting to breed anyway - there's plenty more like her where she came from.

    So I'm not precious about pedigrees either - more about responsible breeding and doing the best to ensure healthy long lived dogs.
    Excuse my ignorance, but are all agility dogs required to be desexed?
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I do know that the ANKC has banned mother to son and father daughter and sibling matings - which I think is a good thing. But cousins are still in, and uncle to niece or aunt to nephew, and I think grandparent to grand child is allowed. Which just sounds creepy from a human point of view. It is a risky thing to do if there are any dodgy genes in that gene pool. It's the sort of thing that leads to the trouble that Dalmatians are in.

    And my cousin the cattle breeder won't do it. And he just one a championship prize for one of his bulls. So you can show, breed, and run healthy lines without inbreeding. It's the people who persist in breeding dogs they know have health problems or have puppies with health problems - that I think should be stopped.
    Funny you should mention Dalmations, my neice has chosen this subject as a basis for a thesis she's writing at Uni, it is very interesting ans quite a unique situation.



    The Dalmatian-Pointer Backcross Project was started by Dr. Robert Schaible, a medical geneticist then at the University of Indiana. His goal was to breed dogs of Dalmatian type and temperament but with normal low uric acid levels. His theory was that the low uric acid dogs would be free from the predisposition to urate calculi and that improvements would also be seen in deafness and in certain types of skin problems. He bred a Pointer (the ONLY Pointer to be involved, now or in the future) to a Dalmatian, then bred one dog from that litter to another Dalmatian. He continued backcrossing to purebred Dals, selecting for Dalmatian characteristics and low uric acid. When he reached the fifth generation, puppies had 31 Dalmatians and 1 Pointer in the fifth generation of their pedigree.

    At this point, the American Kennel Club agreed to register two of the fifth-generation the pups, a male and a female. Although the DCA Board of Directors had supported this decision, the registration became a very controversial issue among the Club membership. A DCA vote opposed the registration and AKC was notified. AKC let registrations of the original two dogs stand, but rescinded the right for any of their offspring to be registered.

    Status of the Project Since AKC Decision Not to Register Offspring

    Backcross Dalmatians cannot be AKC registered nor shown in conformation at AKC events. However, backcross Dalmatians have been allowed to receive ILP’s which permit them to be shown in obedience, and several have earned obedience titles. Some of you may have seen a backcross dog in the obedience ring recently. Jim and Linda Fulks’ RFBCN Lidgate’s Triever Franc was High in Trial at DCA in southern California, with a 195 from the Open A class. He was also DCNC’s HIT in 1988. Frank is a low uric acid backcross dog by Seaspot’s Brandon of Lidgate CDX x RFBCN Blackeyed Susan CD. (The RFBCN in the names stands for Rambler Forrest Back Cross Normal, a designation included in the names of most of the West Coast backcross dogs.)

    The registered backcross male was never bred; all sixth generation or greater backcross dogs are descended from the bitch, Stocklore Stipples. She was bred twice, first by Dr. Schaible in Indiana to Ch. Clockgate Beau Geste. A son, "Jake," was the only one from that litter to be bred. Stipples was leased to Holly Nelson DVM and Joanne Nash for her second and final litter, which was sired by Ch. Sunspot’s Rambler-Ottomatic CDX. Two low uric acid bitches from that litter, RFBCN Blackeyed Susan CD (co-owned by Holly and Joanne) and Susan’s liver sister RFBCN Cinnamon Stipple were the foundation for the "West Coast branch" of the project. Susan’s granddaughter was bred to Cinnamon Stipple’s son for the first low-to-low backcross breeding. The backcross litter by Forrest Douglas Fur x Snowdot’s Swiss Forrest (backcross low), born this spring at Marilyn Moody’s, is the first ninth generation backcross litter.

    - Dalmationheritage.com 1990
    Would love to find out the outcome from this story, I understand backcross dals were permitted to do obedience (they excelled with many titles), but were not eligible for registeration with the AKC ...sheeesh, Update, i will research, unless anyone can shed upates,
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  10. #60

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    From what i've seen there is a lot of snobbery with regard BYB, when realistically the vast majority of dogs out there do come from BYB. I certainly understand the argument against, particularly re puppy farms but also re health testing and i for one will be only buying from registered breeders in the future. However i'm not convinced that the scorn placed on ethical BYB is particularly fair ... for example, i bought Jack from a BYB, they had a bitch who they bred(and this was a one dog home and she slept on the owners bed and the bond between dog and owner was obvious), they were quite particular about whether i would be a suitable owner of the breed etc etc. Its a very complex argument and i sit on the fence(except that next time i'll buy from someone who i know has done all the health checks and stuff).
    Last edited by mymatejack; 03-20-2012 at 09:06 PM.

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