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Thread: Show dog questions.

  1. #41
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    nekbet,Mac, so you feel the concerns raised by welfare and science groups over purebred health and ANKC closed books is unjustified and would be more detrimental to the improvement of breed health in the long run?
    And do you feel that we can successfully move forward improving genetic health, with the current level of improvements, breed standards and breed schemes as mac pointed out?
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    I just believe in ethical and responsible breeding - I don't care whether they show or not, whether they breed pure or not but I do disagree with the closing of stud books, and sadly to date, the breeders I have met who were doing the worst by their dogs were registered breeders who had obtained show titles.
    Exactly Bottles, well said, thank you. responsible breeders have nothing to fear from any changes in the future designed to improve the genetics of purebreds, because they already have healthy and happy well bred dogs.
    Last edited by cavalierqld; 03-19-2012 at 07:29 PM. Reason: Spelling...........grrr
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    As for increasing genetic variation with outcrossing, this has its own inherent problems - how do you know you're not now introducing a new problem into the lines that did not exist before? How do you know the F1 genetics will be complementary enough to create a healthy progency and not a cripple?
    Taken from earlier link...
    It will be asked, "Just how will the opening of our studbooks to outcross stock bring about the elimination of genetic defects?" The answer is that it will not eliminate genetic defects. That need not be the end in view. If we could somehow eliminate all the various genes now known to produce harmful anomalies, plus all of those yet to be discovered, we would almost certainly find that the remaining genome was non-viable, that healthy reproduction and growth to maturity could not reliably take place. Genetic defects are not "eliminated" in nature. Instead random mating and behaviour patterns that discourage inbreeding take care of the problem by ensuring high levels of heterozygosity and the consequent rarity of defective ****zygotes. If we take steps to set up similar patterns in purebred dogs, we shall be able to reduce the level of expression of defective genes greatly, which is all that is required. The end in view is healthy stock, not "racial purity." Purged and purified bloodlines would be weak for other reasons, as has been explained. As the mapping of the canine genome progresses and RFLP allozyme or microsatellite "markers" for common genetic defects are found, we shall probably then be able to use DNA studies to recommend matings that will avoid the production of defective ****zygous progeny -- provided that we have made enough genetic diversity available through outcrossing to give us the genetically distinct lines from which to choose! As things stand now, most breeds are so ****zygous that it could prove extremely difficult to find matings which would avoid one genetic defect without reinforcing another!
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  4. #44

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    Well firstly, there's a massive difference between selective breeding and linebreeding and/or inbreeding. Selective breeding I am all for. I personally would like to selectively breed for healthier, more intelligent dogs. Linebreeding, I'm not convinced - and it's not purely an ethical or moral response ie ew he's mating with his mother/sister/aunt/grandmother, it's just I think it's healthier and more sustainable to have a larger gene pool. I think so long as we don't know and/or understand every gene AND whilst we can't control nature and the evolution of bacteria and viruses etc, it is too dangerous for us to try and increase the inbreeding coefficients. We have genetic markers for a lot of conditions, but not all (we don't have it for humans let alone dogs...) We don't know what causes everything, we don't know what every gene does. More importantly, we don't know how the world will change. Linebreeding and inbreeding create animals that are very similar to each other and so should any new super bug evolve, you could lose them all - like what's happening with our wombats, or tasmanian devils etc. A lot of people think today that Cheetahs are ultimately doomed because their genetic pool is just too compromised. And yet pedigree dogs are more closely related.
    Yes at this stage of the party, an F1 cross is unlikely to be the silver bullet. But that's because they're likely both in the same boat - which was the point I made before through the example of the Great Dane x Mastiff. On the other hand, my RR x Dobe is an F1 cross where I seem to have been quite lucky (from 2 papered parents no less). She is more heat tolerant than my doberman, immune to insect bites (she was stung by a bee the other day on her nose and didn't even react - even as I pulled the stinger out), but she appears to be as trainable and eager to please as my doberman (I think being female helps lol) whereas I saw her mother and she possessed the independence the breed is renowned for. Goes both ways and you can't really predict - there's nothing that would stopped me from getting the exact opposite.

    Even the Sharpei's from showlines often have to have operations to correct their eyelids.

    Whippets were not developed because humans wanted a dog to race, they wanted a dog that could catch rabbits. We race/lure course them today because our ethical standards have shifted.

    The number of breeds and the variation exhibited is awe-inspiring. But I would probably argue that dogs would be better off if we went back to breeding 'types' of dogs, rather than breeds. Many people would likely disagree with me, but I don't see why we can't have both. People here seem to think oh geez we either breed for clones or we breed completely randomly when that's just not the case. There are shades in between, like with the breeder of my dog, where you can have generations with a few breeds incorporated but always breeding for particular traits, and these traits have popped up in every puppy she has produced (and there's a good few of them) but other features can vary slightly. Sammy has a lighter build than some of his siblings, he is faster etc. I think when a person sets out to responsibly breed for a type of dog (rather a purebred), and does so responsibly researching and recording the dogs used, they shouldn't be criticised and there's no reason why this can't take place at the same time as people continuing with purebreds.

    And back to the point I made before about increased susceptibility to bacteria etc, Sammy recently injured his paw badly to the point where the vet wanted to operate. Another doberman (pure) at my club had a similar injury a few months before that happened the exact same way as how Sammy did it, on the paw as well. Sammy reopened his wound multiple times and yet it never got infected throughout the whole process - the vet was amazed. The other doberman ended up with 2 abscesses on either side of her paw that now have left large holes that still don't look 100% benign. She was on antibiotics for months, and still had to have sections removed from her paw because her immune system was unable to overcome the infection. Sammy had one needle when I first took him to the emergency vet and then the wound always looked so healthy the vet said it was unnecessary for him to take anything further. Today, only a month after the incident, you can barely find the scar. Now of course there's lots of factors here, but Sammy's parents and grandparents were farm dogs, bred to work and last and basically take care of themselves as much as possible. The other dobe comes from show lines. You get what you breed for. And by stifling sexual reproduction, you remove their ability to combat evolving bacteria, viruses etc.

  5. #45

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    Wow.... just wow.... no I'm not even going to bother answering that one... this has just turned ridiculous.

  6. #46
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    As a breeder crested, dont you find it interesting?
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  7. #47

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    What part of it is supposed to be interesting?

  8. #48
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    Yes what part is meant to be interesting. You seem to think we line breed and line breed, when we don't, this is the part about understanding it,
    My dogs have relatives from all over the globe, the wonder of modern medicine and importing allows for this. In the mating I did three litters ago over 7 generations there were no relatives in common. The most recent litter had 4. How do you know working dogs don't have relatives in common? Do they come with paperwork stating otherwise? One of my bitches has relatives from Belgium, Canada, NZ, UK, USA. Yep lots of inbreeding going on here.

    Yes I'm perfectly aware of what my breed was designed for, but apart from my own property they don't go around killing rabbits. So we have designed a sport for them to enjoy, in some countries this sport earns money, here it does not. My point was that you think only show people can ruin a dog. When I see daily the dogs at the rescue with a multitude of breeds in them with all kinds of problems.

    Owning Whippets we get a multitude of large skin injuries, I'm certainly not off to the vet each and every time. Their purebred show line immune systems are capable of repairing tears right down and thru the tissue.

    You seem to think that every litter is a bunch of clones, god now I know you don't understand. There are always small variations within a litter, from finer bones to heavier heads etc. My stud dog throws at least one pup from each litter that completely resembles, right down to colour, bone, shape his paternal grandfather. Then there is always one pups that has the colour of his dam & finer boned, the others more blended from all ancestors. Am I surprised by this, no.

    Yes we shall breed a type, not a breed. In todays society with our limited time, space etc that should work much better in matching the right dog with the right owner.

    Cavqld you still haven't answered my question, how come you remain a registered breeder but don't registere your litters. Why are you breaking rules yet want to point the finger at the very organisation you are a member of?

    Healthy, intelligent animals, I believe my dogs are healthy and intelligent.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, when you have driven away the remaining breeders with knowledge on this forum I hope you will be able to find the appropriate help from the internet to spout to them when their very healthy bitza has problems giving birth or feeding pups etc. Whoever is the forum moderator please close my account. I do not wish to be a member, this site is clearly only for xbreds, should remove the purebred part, afterall they are not healthy.
    Last edited by MAC; 03-20-2012 at 04:07 AM.

  9. #49

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    Here here MAC.

  10. #50
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    But please do not let this make you leave MAC, as I for one love and learn from your input........
    Pets are forever

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