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Thread: Show dog questions.

  1. #31

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    This ANKC and show dog bashing is getting old.

  2. #32
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    Who is bashing ANKC and show dogs?

    I hope I havent coz that isnt what I was trying to do......

    But I do have to say, that goes both ways. Labelling EVERY other persona BYBer gets a bit old too.
    Last edited by Lala; 03-19-2012 at 08:23 AM.

  3. #33

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    Honestly I think you get what you breed for. In the 'olden days' dogs had to be able to perform particular working functions - herd sheep all day, protect a house/person, hunt animals and run all day. So the dogs that were bred were the best workers. The vet treatment options we have today didn't exist to a large extent - Ceasars for dogs, artificial insemmination, fertility treatments, arthritus, repair of genetic faults (eg like what alledgedly happened to the Pekinese that won the Crufts show) treatment for the crazy numbers of allergies dogs seem to have these days - if your dog had these problems it was unlikely that it would be bred from. Then enter showing dogs. What we breed for changes - now you want a dog that conforms to the current interpretation of that standard and this can be more important to people than anything else (the dog might not do anything else in its life but compete at shows). Unfortunately as well, this has somehow led to a tendancy to breed for more extreme features - the super curved head of the bull terrier, the super short faces of the bracyphillic breeds, the wrinkles on the mastiffs, the legs and back of the GSD - these traits would not have come about without the rise of dog shows and improvements in technology (so that the associated problems could be dealt with by a vet). Without vet treatment there are breeds that would either die out or change dramatically - eg English Bulldogs, I don't know, maybe the male could successfully mount a much larger dog (so it could give birth naturally) but I can't see them managing it without help...

    Breeders who show today are not necessarily unethical, they may do everything within their power to improve their dogs and breed to improve the breed. But I don't think there are any breeds that can be said to have benefited from the introduction of dog shows. But the good news is I think there are lots of breeders who really care about their dogs and chosen breeds, and want to see a bright future. The ANKC doesn't make them health test, but they are doing it anyway. They might show their dogs, but they also have them compete in agility, flyball and whatever other dog activities and if their dogs have problems, they don't breed from them. I remember reading the blog of a well-renowned breeder of GSP's overseas (I think in England) and he said that over the 30 or so years he had been breeding, he had all but eliminated hip displasyia in his lines, the dogs were living longer each generation and they were smarter. He also worked his dogs, some were sold to show homes, others pets and others to sporting homes - where they would go hunting. I certainly admire this breeder and his legacy.

    I just believe in ethical and responsible breeding - I don't care whether they show or not, whether they breed pure or not but I do disagree with the closing of stud books, and sadly to date, the breeders I have met who were doing the worst by their dogs were registered breeders who had obtained show titles.

  4. #34
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    Really and truly you are all such breeding experts (tongue in cheek) & have so much knowledge on these things that you have so little to do with.

    The fact that you don't know that line breeding and inbreeding is basically the same thing on a different level but line breeding can be used to the utmost advantage f the dog and it's future if you don't know how to use it then you don't know enough.

    Are humans line bred or inbred? Yet find one family that has not been touched by some disease etc and you are going well. You are better to breed strength to strength regardless of whether it is in breeding rather than outcross.

    And yes show Whippets have proven to be more healthy than racing whippets, by breeding for a look instead of an overabundance of muscle, when it should be flat muscle not bunched means we don't get bully whippet here in oz.

    And yep all those physcially great working dogs really enjoy confinement in suburbia. Most of my Kelpie's enjoyed a long life from 13 to 15, hell of a lot longer than most station dogs and didn't land in the pound due to being bored to death.

    The fact that people didn't know when the compulsory microchipping date came in again says you don't know enough (except Newfie)

    Perhaps you should also all look up the new breeder scheme that registered breeders can become apart of. Health testing mandatory.

    I just hope that the next byb or ooops litter that needs assistance still has some breeders with experience left on here to help them. No wonder there is so few legitimate breeders here.

    But you wouldn't know because most here aren't registered breeders who are interested in the changes that are coming about or are registered breeders who flout the current rules so why bother being a registered breeder in the first place. Just knock those that and follow all the rules and regulations.

    Is there a forehead slap emotion here???
    Last edited by MAC; 03-19-2012 at 02:18 PM.

  5. #35

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    The humans that are linebred or inbred have not generally benefited from it. Royal Families, Egyptian Pharaohs, the population of Iceland all spring to mind.
    Actually, you might be interested to know that every human on this planet, be they white, black, asian, indian whatever, we are all more closely related to each other than chimpanzees within the same family. This is because a while ago, believe it or not, humans almost became extinct. Here's an accessible article if you're interested - Humans 'almost became extinct in 70,000 BC' - Telegraph
    So yeah, humans aren't a great example - we too suffer from inbreeding depression to an extent. And it's only getting worse because these days everyone can breed and so many conditions that would have removed you from the gene pool no longer do so thanks to medical advcances (which I am too am grateful for but there are consequences).

    I can see many benefits of linebreeding, but the difficulty is knowing what's hidden in there, and what we're making ourselves vulnerable to moving forward. Since we don't know of every gene and we can't control the external environment (ie viruses and bacteria are continuing to evolve), I worry about any attempts to reduce the genetic material at play.

    Whippets were bred to hunt rabbits, not race. Racing can be like showing, people can be consumed with wanting the short-term immediate wins without considering the long-term impacts.

    I'm not saying that dogs shouldn't be changing, the world has changed, people have changed and canis familiaris is nothing without people. But how they have changed in cases is what I take objection to. I do not believe it has been in the best interests of the dogs to have the super short faces, the extra wrinkles (poor Sharpeis), the curved backs etc. These have been the result of the show scene. This doesn't mean that all people who show their dogs are bad and that all dogs that win prizes are bad. It also doesn't mean that it can't have a future. I merely disagree with how the standards for some breeds are reinterpreted and think that where possible, the performance and quality of life for the dog needs to be considered when specific traits are bred for and we need to be aware of what the impact will be.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
    Really and truly you are all such breeding experts (tongue in cheek) & have so much knowledge on these things that you have so little to do with.

    The fact that you don't know that line breeding and inbreeding is basically the same thing on a different level but line breeding can be used to the utmost advantage f the dog and it's future if you don't know how to use it then you don't know enough.

    Are humans line bred or inbred? Yet find one family that has not been touched by some disease etc and you are going well. You are better to breed strength to strength regardless of whether it is in breeding rather than outcross.

    And yes show Whippets have proven to be more healthy than racing whippets, by breeding for a look instead of an overabundance of muscle, when it should be flat muscle not bunched means we don't get bully whippet here in oz.

    And yep all those physcially great working dogs really enjoy confinement in suburbia. Most of my Kelpie's enjoyed a long life from 13 to 15, hell of a lot longer than most station dogs and didn't land in the pound due to being bored to death.

    The fact that people didn't know when the compulsory microchipping date came in again says you don't know enough (except Newfie)

    Perhaps you should also all look up the new breeder scheme that registered breeders can become apart of. Health testing mandatory.

    I just hope that the next byb or ooops litter that needs assistance still has some breeders with experience left on here to help them. No wonder there is so few legitimate breeders here.

    But you wouldn't know because most here aren't registered breeders who are interested in the changes that are coming about or are registered breeders who flout the current rules so why bother being a registered breeder in the first place. Just knock those that and follow all the rules and regulations.

    Is there a forehead slap emotion here???
    Thats funny, I thought I said inbreeding and line breeding is essentially the same thing.

    Anyway, I havent commented on any particular breeding practices of anyone. I am quit ehappy to stick with m stance that I dont really care who breeds what as long as it is done responsibly.

  7. #37

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    Many of the breeds you just mentioned were about LONG before people started showing dogs, so don't pin it on us.

    Taken from Wikipedia: Shar Pei, or Chinese Shar-Pei, is a breed of dog known for its distinctive features of deep wrinkles and a blue-black tongue. The breed comes from China. The name (沙皮, pinyin: shā pí; English name probably derived from British spelling of the Cantonese equivalent, sā pèih) translates to "sand skin" and refers to the texture of its short, rough coat. As puppies, Shar Pei have numerous wrinkles, but as they mature, these wrinkles loosen and spread out as they "grow into their skin". Shar Pei were named in 1978 as one of the world's rarest dog breeds by Time magazine and the Guinness Book of World Records, and the American Kennel Club did not recognize the breed until 1991.

    The ancestry of the Shar-Pei is uncertain. It may be a descendant of the Chow Chow; however, the only clear link between these is the blue-black tongue. However, pictures on pottery suggest the breed was present even in the Han Dynasty (206 BC).

    The wrinkles...
    If a Shar Pei is being attacked the wrinkles will allow the dog to move and strike back while being bitten and keep the internal organs from being injured badly.
    In the Shar-pei they discovered four small differences located in the gene HAS2 which is responsible for making hyaluronic acid synthase 2. That enzyme makes hyaluronic acid, which is one of the key components of the skin. There have been rare cases in which a mutation of the same gene has caused severe wrinkling in humans as well.

    ------

    The overly wrinkled Shar Pei's you see would not win in a show ring, they are bred for looks alone which is NOT what dog shows are about.

  8. #38

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    I get a chuckle out of people who are horrified at line breeding, shows the lack of education about breeding in general

  9. #39
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    I can see many benefits of linebreeding, but the difficulty is knowing what's hidden in there, and what we're making ourselves vulnerable to moving forward. Since we don't know of every gene and we can't control the external environment (ie viruses and bacteria are continuing to evolve), I worry about any attempts to reduce the genetic material at play.

    Whippets were bred to hunt rabbits, not race. Racing can be like showing, people can be consumed with wanting the short-term immediate wins without considering the long-term impacts.
    Actually whippets were coursers like a lot of sight hounds ... and that was short spurts of high speed after a furry thing ... just what racing is now! It's illegal to course live game in Australia hence why there is racing and lure coursing available for dogs now. Coursing is actually quite dangerous depending on the terrain and dogs can get quite severe injuries running into things or falling into rabbit holes etc.

    Without selective breeding we wouldnt have any breed of any animals we have today. The difference is that we can test for genetic markers in a lot of animals so we can linebreed/inbreed without problem. Both linebreeding and inbreeding is a centuries old thing its not something that just popped up in pedigree dogs in the last few decades. Both only fail IF there is a lethal recessive condition inherent in the genetic line. Then nature puts a stop to your work. I know a few inbred/linebred dogs that turned out just fine and very healthy, trick is to use that great individual to your advantage. Outcrossing lines and breeds is NOT always a smart idea - in fact its what fills the pounds with dogs that dont fit any niche or are unwanted because of the traits they now exhibit. Same thing with mixing show/working lines in some breeds, pups that cant work but are too much for pet ... only one place for them.

    As for increasing genetic variation with outcrossing, this has its own inherent problems - how do you know you're not now introducing a new problem into the lines that did not exist before? How do you know the F1 genetics will be complementary enough to create a healthy progency and not a cripple?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post

    But you wouldn't know because most here aren't registered breeders who are interested in the changes that are coming about or are registered breeders who flout the current rules so why bother being a registered breeder in the first place. Just knock those that and follow all the rules and regulations.

    Is there a forehead slap emotion here???
    Wow, I thought this was an interesting thread, talking about the health of purebred dogs in general. No person has been singled out, and the comments of ignorance on certain topics...????? Where and who are you talking about?

    Not one person here is an expert in all subjects, even you mac, thats why its great that we have the opportunity to share experiences and learn from each other.


    There have been numerous mentions of responsible breeders and there efforts in improving their breed, but find some of the restrictions by governing bodies them down
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

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