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Thread: 'Oodles' 'Schnoos' 'Aliers' and 'Poos'

  1. #1
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    Default 'Oodles' 'Schnoos' 'Aliers' and 'Poos'

    Thought I'd start a new thread as I hijacked the old one...

    Over in the Pugalier wanted thread I have posed the question- what specific breed characteristics can one reliably breed for in designer cross breeding that could not more reliably be obtained through pure breeding.

    I often see people stating that they want this designer cross for particular characteristics.

    Many have made the argument we (the forum members) should be less negative and offer more positive communication.

    I'm not arguing against diplomacy. I'm all for it.

    I don't think anyone should be made to feel an idiot- learning does not occur that way.

    But... Yet... Not a single argument to support the preference for specifically breeding (NOT rescuing) a designer cross breed for specific characteristics?

    I see answers dodging around my question, referring to diplomacy (I agree), the badness of puppy mills (I agree) and the fact that not all crossbreed dogs are bad (I agree)...

    But what benefit of deliberately breeding or searching for a designer cross- what characteristics do they reliably have that a pure breed does not- apart from lack of predictability?

    As I have stated on the other thread- I don't have a preconceived answer to just earbash everyone with- I really do want to hear people' thoughts... But thoughts about Specific characteristics not puppy mills (we know that) and not diplomacy (cause I think we agree on that, too) and not on great rescued or other crosses (cause I think we agree there are some great ones out there, and my family have one, too!!)....

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    I think we can all agree on the fact that the method of breeding these dogs can't possibly result in real predictability of characteristics. Some predictability could only be achieved if they start breeding from the crossbreds themselves, which as far as I know isn't currently happening. But I think most people wanting a dog like that may just not have a great need for predictability? They like both breeds, they like the look of the crosses that they have seen, don't mind if their pup ends up looking quite different and they may not think or care that much about temperament. Maybe in a similar way that I quite enjoy the unpredictability of my rescue dogs? I had no idea how big she would grow and little idea about her needs or temperament, but I like the mystery and element of surprise. Just to say, not everyone thinks predictability is a must or even a positive necessarily.

    And you could argue that even if you do not know what characteristics the pups will inherit from which parent, you can fairly safely predict that a pug crossed with a cavalier is not going to behave like a GSD, that their size will be pretty similar to one of the breeds and they're not going to have a golden retriever coat. I know it's not much to go on, but I think for some people it's enough.

  3. #3

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    Some tough questions
    what specific breed characteristics can one reliably breed for in designer cross breeding that could not more reliably be obtained through pure breeding.
    an example could be the Eurasier which once was a "designer dog", of chow chow keeshond and samoyed, though the term designer dog is only a recent inclusion into language.

    First it was called the Wolf Chow(designer name) then later in the 70's the Wolf Chow (which was the chow chow/keeshond cross) was crossed with the samoyed and named Eurasier( designer name chosen to reflect the dogs European and Asian backgrounds in breed make up) and FCI recognised within just a couple years afterwards, the breed was formed for no reason other than as a companian dog with the good characteristics of the chow chow, keeshond and samoyed etc.

    Some work very hard with a goal in mind to create breeds which cement traits and characteristics etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    Some work very hard with a goal in mind to create breeds which cement traits and characteristics etc.
    Which should be encouraged with these recent crossbreds, in my opinion. Instead of just looking down on these 'breeders of mutts', maybe they could get some support to move towards developing a 'proper' new breed that can then be regulated, etc. It would help to sift the chaff from the wheat, I reckon.
    Last edited by Beloz; 12-15-2011 at 10:55 AM.

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    This is good... These are things I know I haven't thought long and hard about... But want to IYKWIM?

    And adds to our ability to really help people who ask...

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    I like some new breeds and would be interested in them when they come to Australia, the Silken Windhound is certainly one. However the loops, legalities, regulations, breeding history and records are lengthy, hence why it takes years to formally recognise a new breed as just that 'a breed'; two people just don't put together a Whippet and a Borzoi and produce Silken Windhounds and sell them as such, well actually people probably do and they would be designer dog breeders doing so for the money.

    If the oodle producers were prepared to go thru the same loops then they may have my respect. But I think they are mainly governed by the $$$$. The $$ is brought about by demand and therefore have no interest in being regulated because it's largely not about a 'new breed', and cementing characteristics & type, its about money.

    Everyone who purchases a designer dog from anywhere other than a pound or shelter contributes to the problem. I don't believe there is any use in saying we don't. I do believe we can word our arguments better and if the horse has bolted it's no use closing the gate, new members will soon get the message without direct insults as they make their way around the site, but certainly prior to purchase I will always try to steer a person in another direction.

    Rightly or wrongly I don't agree with people breeding dogs to supply to pet shops, nobody can convince me this is a good place to buy a puppy from. Nobody can convince me that the people who sell to petshops, whether they be purebred dogs or not are good breeders. They are leaving the selling of their puppy up to staff in a pet shop, displayed strategically to suck people in.

    I believe that just about everyone here could go to a shelter or oodle breeder etc and come home and make that dog part of their family, mold that dog and be prepared to make adjustments for what they brought home pretty much regardless of the unpredictable characteristics due to the mixing of different breeds without a history behind them (by characteristics I include exercise requirements, grooming requirements etc).

    But there are many people that have very strict exercise, grooming, and energy level requirements they want in a dog and on the most part would be more satisfied with purebred dog from a breeder and lines that suit them. I applaud these people for doing their homework and matching their dog to their lifestyle the same way I applaud people who go to shelters or rescues to find the dog for them.
    Last edited by MAC; 12-15-2011 at 11:35 AM.

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    Might seem OT, but am responding to that thread here because it is the catalyst Jo...

    Quote Originally Posted by Villain & Flirtt View Post

    And adds to our ability to really help people who ask...
    Perhaps we all need to show some self restraint when replying. I have been guilty of slamming simply due to frustration, it did nothing but help push the person further away from being informed on this topic.

    This is not a court room, judgement is for judges, they have the objective facts that we don't.
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    Aha yeah me too! wee wee or pee pee and poo poo's or poopie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chipps View Post
    Might seem OT, but am responding to that thread here because it is the catalyst Jo...

    Perhaps we all need to show some self restraint when replying. I have been guilty of slamming simply due to frustration, it did nothing but help push the person further away from being informed on this topic.

    This is not a court room, judgement is for judges, they have the objective facts that we don't.
    Oh, I absolutely agree Chipps. Completely.

    I guess for me the argument 'against' had a number of negatives;
    1. Supporting puppy mills
    2. Supporting BYB's
    3. Lack of health testing
    4. Ethical breeding issues

    Yet, quite often an individual comes here and wants an 'oodle' or whichever because they want 'that
    exact type of dog'... Which lead me to wonder IF there is anything such as 'that exact type of dog' when it is the result of a cross breeding. Lord knows (as I said in the other thread) that's hard enough with pure breds...

    So, I figured as I was curious, it'd make good discussion (hopefully)!

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    Well V&F I could tell you why I would want a Silken Windhound, and it would not be due to any perceived better trainability/calmness or whatever characteristic people come up with for wanting an oodle over over a purebred poodle or a purebred....say maltese because the characteristics of the Borzoi and the Whippet are very similar, it would be because after generations of breeding I could be certain that I would get a Silken Windhound and know pretty much what it's characteristics would be like, it's exercise requirements, it's coat care, it's size and I would get to meet the parents and a history of what those dogs and their breeders were like.

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    So... MAC... this is much more than the F1 cross? Right?

    I mean, Dobes are like the poster child for crossbreeds- a human made breed made up of, well, goodness knows, really.

    But that's a case of structured, planned breeding into which a great deal if effort is put in the hopes of having a breed recognized, I think, like Beau's example above.

    What happens after the F1 -and oodles are bred to oodles? Does it begin to give greater consistency?

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