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Thread: 'Oodles' 'Schnoos' 'Aliers' and 'Poos'

  1. #61
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    breeding a dog for work is one thing???

    It's not different.

    Yes there are already plenty of pet breeds available, but there are also plenty of breeds available for work.

    I find that argument quite ridiculous.

    Either you can find the characteristics of a cross in a purebred or you cant, it's simple as that. Whether it is a working breed or a pet doesnt come into it at all.

    You cant use the argument when it suits....to me, that indicates that it is purely a bad attitude against "oodles" and nothing to do with crossing at all. You either agree with cross breeding or you dont, you cant pick and choose when you think it is OK (ie. working dogs are fine, oodles are not).

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    But surely there is a breed out there that meets the same characteristics as a BC x retreiver and would be just as good for search and rescue??????????????

    Just chucking that out there, I think it is an invalid argument but it is in the first post of this thread....
    I have no idea..........I just know what they do. Also all breeds we have now, come from original cross breeding. For example the Flat coated Retriever is golden cross and collie of some sort with Setter in its history, that is cross breeding. All be it many moons ago.
    Pets are forever

  3. #63
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    I know all that newfsie, and personally, like I have stated many times, I have no issue with cross breeding as long as it is done right (health checks etc). I dont think there has to be a purpose. So what if it is for a cute crossbred pup who is going to be a pet So. what if it is for money. I dont care about the resons, I just care about the welfare of the dogs being used.

    I only chucked my previous comment out because that is the argument being used as to why people should get a pure instead of a cross.

    By the way, I think your BC/Retreiver is just gorgeous. Looks like ablack retreiver to me, very cute and I am sure an amazng dog

  4. #64
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    To each his own.
    Personally, I can't look past the working dogs.
    Having had the privelige of sharing twenty years of my life with them, I remember fondly the strength of character that made me love them so much. I do not actually regard them as animals at all.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubbsecurity View Post
    To each his own.
    Personally, I can't look past the working dogs.
    Having had the privelige of sharing twenty years of my life with them, I remember fondly the strength of character that made me love them so much. I do not actually regard them as animals at all.
    I must admit I have always had a very special place for all our working dogs...Ours were workers during the day and inside at night, with the rest of the tribe. I do miss our Kelpie's. Nugget and Fred were very loved and lived to the grand old age of 16 and 15.
    Pets are forever

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    breeding a dog for work is one thing???

    It's not different.

    Yes there are already plenty of pet breeds available, but there are also plenty of breeds available for work.

    I find that argument quite ridiculous.

    Either you can find the characteristics of a cross in a purebred or you cant, it's simple as that. Whether it is a working breed or a pet doesnt come into it at all.
    I might comment on this one seeing as I work my dogs and have not posted for awhile as I have had a pretty eventful lambing and cropping season this year.

    In the main most working breeders keep their dogs reletively pure but even some of the best breeders will occassionally for example put a bit of kelpie in with a BC. They do it with a very strong understanding though of why they are doing it and what traits they are trying to fix. The kelpie and collie are very similar in many aspects and have similar working styles but there is often a very good reason why they might be mixed. Primarily to fix certain desirable traits. They tend not to breed weak to strong, but rather strong to strong, so if you have a BC with a very strong set of desirable traits and come across a kelpie that matches better than anything else they would then use the kelpie in that one generation for example, select the best pups and then breed them back to the BC line for example.

    The other reason maybe the terrain and environment and type of stock are such where farmers will breed specifically for certain qualities. The ACD is a good example of a dog that is a result of much blending to find an animal that would work extreme cattle in an extreme envirnment. As that role has diminished farmers have perhaps wanted to soften the charateristcs and include other working dog breeds that can bring something new to the table but still keeping some of the original elements to suit the stock and environment.

    Good working dogs are worth their weight in gold but working environments and livestock are very variable and thus in some cases farmers will do their own adjustments. Kelpie huntaway crosses are very successfull where I live for example so farmers have no problems in experimenting, looking for that dog that will suit their needs.

    I think many oodles etc are done to cash in on a market, with out any real understanding of the traits you are trying to capture. My mother has a BYB oodle that came from a larbradoodle bred to another labradoodle. A really delightful dog but the health issues have been lengthy. It really very much depends on the knowledge, ethics and goals of the breeders involved with any breeding - Unfortunately this is usually the main problem.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 12-18-2011 at 03:59 PM.

  7. #67

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    When pups are bred solely for cute puppy looks and instant appeal, it's not the fortunate ones that end up in lasting, appropriate homes that are the concern. It's the ones that grow up looking and behaving in completely unexpected ways, having completely unmanageable coats etc etc that are the concern. These are the ones that end up unwanted or uncared for.

    Or the ones that don't get sold as pups and end up euthanased (unsold in pet shops) or back in the breeding cages (unsold on farm).

    And most of these designer cross breeds are high maintenance indeed. Your average consumer has limited skills in training and grooming and can be overwhelmed very quickly when finding themselves with a pet that may not be suited to their lifestyle and needs.

    When we breed and supply animals as short term consumer gratification items we are bound to create ongoing animal welfare issues, short term ones of unwanted/uncared for excess stock, and longer term ones involving ongoing congenital and environmental health issues and care levels of large amounts of intensively housed adult breeding stock.

    Our instant demand society values are suited to the mass production of easily available, attractive pups. But we also live in a throw away, disposable society in many ways, and treating animals as products dooms them to be treated as any other product.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nattylou View Post
    When pups are bred solely for cute puppy looks and instant appeal, it's not the fortunate ones that end up in lasting, appropriate homes that are the concern. It's the ones that grow up looking and behaving in completely unexpected ways, having completely unmanageable coats etc etc that are the concern. These are the ones that end up unwanted or uncared for.

    Or the ones that don't get sold as pups and end up euthanased (unsold in pet shops) or back in the breeding cages (unsold on farm).

    And most of these designer cross breeds are high maintenance indeed. Your average consumer has limited skills in training and grooming and can be overwhelmed very quickly when finding themselves with a pet that may not be suited to their lifestyle and needs.

    When we breed and supply animals as short term consumer gratification items we are bound to create ongoing animal welfare issues, short term ones of unwanted/uncared for excess stock, and longer term ones involving ongoing congenital and environmental health issues and care levels of large amounts of intensively housed adult breeding stock.

    Our instant demand society values are suited to the mass production of easily available, attractive pups. But we also live in a throw away, disposable society in many ways, and treating animals as products dooms them to be treated as any other product.
    First of all, you see purebreds end up in shelters too with coats that have to be shaved to the skin because they haven't been cared for. If you don't groom your purebred poodle, you'll have the same problem.

    The other arguments you mention also are not directly related to the fact that they are crossbreds really, but they are caused by the breeding and sale of these pups not being regulated. I keep stressing that the two issues should be separated if we are serious about forcing a change. If you insist that designer crosses automatically mean puppy farms, it is going to remain that way forever! If however, people start demanding that these crosses should be bred in similar conditions as with (most) registered breeders, there could be a massive improvement in the welfare of not only the breeding dogs but also the pups and how many of them end up being euthanased.
    Last edited by Beloz; 12-19-2011 at 10:47 AM.

  9. #69

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    You dont have to tell me about purebreds coming into rescue, I do rescue of certain breeds and t can be a nightmare.

    I wouldnt care if you were breeding poodles, or cavaliers or mutts. The simple, inescapable fact is that more of these "designer" crossbreds are mass produced for nothing but profit.

    It doesnt matter how it is argued, these designer crosses have an appalling recent history of over production and animal health and welfare issues.

    As for them being bred responsibly, fine. Yet their very reasons for being bred are to make money and suck in gullible consumer for a cute quick fix.

    Yes ANKC registered breeders can be ratbags, and can be in it for the money. Humans are humans, regardless of what breed of dog they have in their backyard.

    Show me a designer crossbreed that has one trait not found in an already regonised breed. Very difficult, if not completely impossible. They are created for profit. If this can be done responsibly, why would it be done at all when there is an excess of unwanted companion animals?

    Like MAC has shown, there are indeed people in the world working to create new breeds, breeding, recording and continuing in an ethical and appropriate manner. Churning out Oodles does not compare . It is driven by greed and not by passion for the dogs. I have yet to see any oodles bred in a manner that could possibly change my opinion.

  10. #70
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    I cannot see how you can prevent people from breeding crossbreeds though. Or breeding for profit for that matter. That is something that will never be achieved through legal means. So why don't we concentrate on the things that may be achievable. To try and force laws that will help ensure that ANY breeding, I don't care if it's an ancient purbreed or a mix of 10 different dogs, has to be done responsibly or else. That is why I am saying that it is counterproductive to not separate these two issues.

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