Last edited by puggerup; 12-30-2011 at 08:17 AM.
I still don't get where this resentment against people wanting, owning or breeding crossbreeds comes from. I find it rather unsettling. It's almost as if those so vehemently opposing crossbreeding feel threatened or something, but I wouldn't know why.
While the OP asked why would you cross breeds, I have still not got an answer to the question "Why not"? Leaving the puppy farm issue out of it because we ALL agree on that.
I have asked for proof that crossbreeds have more health issues compared to purebreeds and didn't get it.
I have asked for proof that deliberately bred crossbreeds have more chance of being dumped than purebreeds and didn't get it.
I very much doubt that even indiscriminately crossing breeds would lead to the dogs reverting to wolves, as is proved by the many mongrels that get adopted from shelters - down here only the tiniest minority fails the temperament test.
The idea of 'breeding for purpose' doesn't convince me as that purpose is often more of a hindrance than a help in companion animals anyway.
The idea of 'bettering the breed' doesn't convince me because the dog really couldn't care less how many prizes his parents won and it really doesn't take rocket science to produce a nice family dog.
And I don't object to people breeding animals for money even. I don't think that is so much worse than the reaons why purebred breeders breed, no matter how much you try to fool yourself.
And I don't object to people choosing a pup because it's cute, just like I don't care why people choose to have kids as long as they love them and look after them well.
So, why not?
Oh and I also noted that I was the only one who gave Apuppyforme a pat on the back for doing the right thing by getting a pup bred on demand from a breeder who does health checks and only breeds every few years. Do you or do you not want people to stop buying from puppy farms? I think you should make up your minds and stop trying to drive people who love dogs just as much as us away just because they do not make the same choices as you.
I have a special place for cross breeds...and seeing so many badly bred pure breds I can understand why a lot of people stay away from them.
I do hate puppies being bred in horrible environments (puppy farm, some back-yard breeders AND...... quite a lot of ANKC registered Breeders)
To me it is all about the well being of the dogs and their health..I choose to have newfies, because well bred newfies are a reliable happy, gregarious, faithfull, funny, clever and just awesome dog. And I have owned many and they have all just turned out almost the same.
But I love my cross breed, Tessa and what she can do and how clever she is.........And seeing that Search and Rescue is now Breeding her cross for the future Search and Rescue dogs in a few places, I will have one again when the time comes. But I would have to be sure that they came from good breeding facilities, just like i do with my newfies. i would never buy a newfie puppy from a breeder who does not do health checks. I would buy a newfie puppy from a back yard breeder who has done the health checks and checked the lineages of the dogs. If they were what I wanted, I would buy one.
Having been very involved with the pure bred world, as from a showing and training point of view, I am not that impressed with some people in that world, including some Judges........I will sit on the fence and check out each situation individually before i will condemn a Breeder of any kind, pure or part.
Just please no puppy farms where the dogs are mistreated and kept contained forever. And puppies only bred for looks and fashion statement, is just beyond my understanding. If you are looking for certain ability, character and prefer a certain look with that, that I can understand........Just my opinion
Pets are forever
I recall reading a study from Sweden I think about how poor breeding practices had led to a real increase in dysplasias in Rotties. Strict screeining over a number of years really made a huge difference. I know in WA the ANKC know makes it mandatory for labs and goldens to be hip and elbow scored before they can be bred because of the real increase in problems starting to occur within these breeds. PRA in another one common in a number of breeds and also crossbreeds that requires good genetic management by identifying carriers and clears before breeding.
I will see what I can find out from her.
It is pretty darn devastating and expensive to have a dog with a serious genetic disease or temperament problem, having had both in my time and realising poor breeding practices were the cause. So anything that can be put in place to reduce this is realy important in my book.
Last edited by Kalacreek; 12-30-2011 at 09:55 AM.
I know that in newfies, some lines are very prone to HD and some lines have almost managed to make HD gone ( the genetic variety).......This is responsible Breeding, health-checking.
And don't think that cross Breeds do not have ortho issues.I see so many cross breeds that have to leave doing Obedience/agility, because they have HD or any other ortho issue
If only everyone would check for all the health issues before breeding, if only. It would reduce the problem. It cannot make it dissapear, because especially HD and other ortho issues can also be due to environmental problems in puppyhood: such as slippery floors, jumping, injuries due to rough play and just injuries which cause arthritis (just like humans).
Some breeds even accept bad conformation in their breed standard, especially the teeth, skin etc......I have never understood that. It might look cute and such, bit often causes many health problems again
Pets are forever
Couldn't agree more on the health testing. And I would prefer trying to breed out those hereditary diseases to be the main driver behind cross breeding rather than looks or trying to achieve a hypo-allergenic coat myself.
And as stated before, I would never select a dog on looks alone. In fact, looks are at the bottom of my criteria list when choosing a dog. As my rather ugly looking mongrel (objectively - of course I think she is the cutest dog that ever lived) is living proof of.
But to each their own. Choosing a dog for looks is not the monopoly of DD owners. Just look at how the popularity of certain purebreeds increases based on movies or celebrities owning one. I don't really know about Australia, but in Europe Lassie and Rin Tin Tin (did you get that here?) caused a massive spike in the sale of Collies and GSDs. Some still ended up in good homes and lived a great life, some would have ended up in the wrong hands.
Thing is, some people should just not own dogs, full stop. I've seen GSDs stuck in backyards all day bored out of their brains in suburbia, I've seen ACDs wander the streets because they didn't get the stimulation they needed, I've seen JRTs that chased cars and loads of fluffy whites that try to attack anything that moves.
But if people do their research, have an idea of what they can expect (like I was prepared for possible staffy and kelpie traits in my rescue) and get a pup from a breeder who cares about their dogs I reckon it doesn't matter what the dog is.
I do not oppose cross breeding. And I've stated that ad nauseaum. I simply ask why cross two different breeds to attain character traits that exist already in a pure breed. Simple question. No one can answer it.
The times I oppose crossbreeding are;
*When a breeder is using two dogs of different breed to produce specific character traits and yet do not have the ancestral knowledge to be sure that each dog in the pair will throw as dominant traits the best characteristics of each breed
*When the dogs used are not the best examples of their breed available
*When shedding and non shedding breeds are crossed and then marketed as 'easier' coat care than one or the other- a lady I know is a professional groomer. She has related multiple occasions of customers not understanding that when you have a non-shedding coat that it requires as much, or more, work than a shedding coat. So many customers quoted as saying 'I do love my dog dearly, but I wish I had known this prior to getting the dog. I thought it would be easier, not harder'
*When the two breeds being crossed have similar 'breed health' issues and combining them genetically increases the chances that the offspring will have genetic problems
*When a breeder markets offspring from a cross breeding as 'fixing' genetic issues. Ie crossing a Cav with a pug does not guarantee absence of breathing issues
*When a breeder fails to fully genetically test breeding animals for known genetic issues- health checks aren't a yearly trip to the vet, they are a full on exercise to specifically identify the best of the best of the best to breed from
*When a breeder of cross breeds promises a certain look- from a F1 cross. Google 'Doodlemann Pinscher'. Google will show you multiple pictures of dogs that look nothing at all like each other, vary in height, weight, coat, temperament. Don't tell me Doodlemanns are the only cross hampered by this unpredictability... Sure you may not want predictability. That's fine with me... But don't say you want a DD because of how it will 'look'!!!
I'd be against any pure breeder doing any of the above, too. But I'd go out on a limb and say of all the breeding that is happening out there in the world, the DD breeders are doing the above things more often. Please let me reiterate: there are dodgy breeders in both the pure and cross breeds... But in the world of pure breeds, there is a governing body. A bit toothless, yes, but it exists. There are no such regulations for DD cross breeders. You show me a DD cross breeder who can alleviate all of my above concerns and I'll say 'great! Fantastic. Awesome'
Dobes are kinda the poster child for a man made breed. Herr Louis Dobermann used his knowledge of genetics to create a purpose built dog long before the knowledge we have now was ever available. He crossed, culled, bred, culled until he had a reliable formula for the dog we now call Dobermanns. I have no issue with specific, planned, knowledgeable, intelligent breeding either of cross or pure breeds... But how many DD breeders do this?
And I seriously disagree that the humble family pet should have one iota less care in it's creation than a top show or working dog. Do we not owe it to our canine companions to be the bloody best they xan possibly be?
I am sorry if I offended VF. But if you read some of the posts directed at those defending the right to cross breed (barely disguised insults), surely it is not hard to understand why I get so defensive? I am trying hard to hold back and not lower myself to personal attacks and massive generalisations, but I apologise if I failed at times to do so.
I have to step back a bit and let it settle too, but I will reply to some of the points you raise now.
This is what I've been trying to argue all along. Why don't we lobby for a regulating body? Why don't we encourage those who do the right thing?But in the world of pure breeds, there is a governing body. A bit toothless, yes, but it exists. There are no such regulations for DD cross breeders. You show me a DD cross breeder who can alleviate all of my above concerns and I'll say 'great! Fantastic. Awesome'
Thing is, we just differ completely on the genetic selection stance and though I can see where you are coming from, for me it is taking it a step too far. I understand trying to breed out hereditary conditions and temperament testing breeding dogs. And to me that is all it should be. I don't agree with this whole "Do we not owe it to our canine companions to be the bloody best they xan possibly be?". Do you seriously, honestly believe that a dog will have a lesser life if he doesn't have the nicest coat, the strongest skeleton, the best whatever or is the best at everything his breed was bred for? Because I don't. I don't think it is necessary to make our dogs into some kind of uber-dog. I think an average dog is good enough for the 'average dog owner' - ie. the majority of them - and I am pretty sure the dogs couldn't care less as long as they are healthy and happy. "The best of the best" are probably best left to those who want to enter competitions. It's a world I am not familiar with and feel no need to be involved in.
I am aware that some of you might find an opinion like that too controversial, but I genuinely believe this. But I am also aware that this is what causes the great divide in this discussion, which we are unlikely to ever resolve.
I love a good debate, I apologise again if I got a bit carried away. I learnt a lot about why I think what I think. I learnt a lot about why you think why you think - though I never will fully understand.
An agree to disagree is probably all that can be achieved here. I think I was just hoping that I could stop people being driven away from this forum because of their choice of dog by arguing that they are not all ignorant and uncaring fools.
Well... When I say 'be the best they can be', I'm not meaning an uber-dog, not at all.
Does 'Fido' need a good skeleton? Yes. Because Fido needs to be able to run and play and fetch the ball his owner throws. To jump and grab the frisbee. To run beside the bike. To wrestle on the floor with the kids or his canine mates. To be able to have the joys of movement. To not have to undergo painful surgeries or have his life limited. Yes, Fido needs a terrific skeleton. He needs good teeth to chew good bones and to maintain health. He needs a good coat to ensure warmth, cooling and year round weather protection. He needs a good breathing system and healthy eyes.
I actually think the family Fido needs to be hale, hardy fit and healthy, possibly even more do than some others because as the family dog he needs to cover oh so many more bases.
So, no, not an uber dog. A healthy, fit, structurally sound Fido... But the best Fido he can be. He is no less impprtant just because he is not working, tracking, showing, trialling. I utterly shudder to think Fido could be perceived as less than Gr Ch Uber Doggy Dom I'm so Special!!
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