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Thread: 'Oodles' 'Schnoos' 'Aliers' and 'Poos'

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villain & Flirtt View Post
    *sigh*

    There's too much 'Robin Hood' here... Stealing from the rich to give to the poor so to speak.

    I was simply hoping someone out there could offer me one good reason for breeding a designer breed when there really are already breeds out there to suit every whim. Even those who love 'surprise packages'... Because there are rescue options.

    I cannot see how one can reputably and ethically breed DD crosses. Firstly, because it contravenes ANKC ethics. Secondly because then breeder is either a) breaking ANKC rules or b) using less than perfect specimens (the good ones are out there in the conformation rings, right, and no breeder with a super dooper awesome specimen is going to cross it with a different breed) and c) there is no structured planned program in place to either a) improve an existing breed or b) create a new one or c) utilize known traits for a specific working purpose.

    I agree we need to communicate supportively. Geez, of course, that isn't rocket science.

    But, finally, I think I can answer my original question;

    What characteristics can one seek to reliably find in a purpose bred DD cross that cannot be found in an exiting breed (or in a shelter)?

    A fancy pants sounding name that makes it look like one has the newest and bedtest thing on the block. Followed by a large loss to the pocket.
    Why would the ANKC have anything to do with this at all? I thought we were concerned about the welfare of the dogs? No one has even suggested that the DD breeders should focus on making it a proper recognised breed. Why wouldn't the relevant health and temperament tests of the parents be sufficient for the purpose these dogs are bred for? The same purpose that ends up being the 'fate' of the less than perfect specimens of the purebred litters. To be a family dog.

  2. #192
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    The problem I see with deliberately breeding crossbreds is the genetics. The advantage with a purebred dog is that the genetics are more straight forward and more of a known. You have a pretty good idea if you are are a good breeder what nasty surprises could pop up, carried down the generations if you do a certain mating. So the crossbreeder may look after their dog well and test the parents, but there is a lot more to it than that, to reduce the chance of nasty surprises.

    The crossbreeder may know the lines of each parent but it really is a lot more pot luck as to what may come from some generations back and cause a nasty clash. Chances are it may not happen but it is devastating when it does. Having paid upward of $6000 dealing with a situation like this I really like to know that the breeder can talk to me about these issues and has knowledge of ancestory. I know when they are bullshitting too believe me.

    So health testing is not a moot point really in this discussion, because it really does involve a knowledge of how certain lines are going to mesh, not just the parents and I suspect people dont realise how important that concept is. I certainly didnt. One working breeder said - dont tell me what breed the dog is, it is irrelevant if it is BC or kelpie and means nothing, show me the lines it comes from and its ancestory and I can tell you what you are most likely to expect.

    For me ancestory is important because I have come to realise after owning some 40 dogs and having to try and right some terrible wrongs, both in cross and purebreds how important it really is to the health and well being of the dogs we bring into this world.

    I dont know any crossbreeders outside the working world, do they have this in depth knowledge of genetics and ancestory and the probabilities of clashes?, or do they just health test the parents?
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 12-29-2011 at 03:22 PM.

  3. #193

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    Labradoodle breeders sometimes have ancestory papers from both sides and also Aussie bulldogs.. pretty much any cross which is in the midst of becoming a new breed.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by puggerup View Post
    Labradoodle breeders sometimes have ancestory papers from both sides and also Aussie bulldogs.. pretty much any cross which is in the midst of becoming a new breed.
    I can understand if the the dog is becoming a new breed where a breeder is selecting for and fixing specific traits, but for a continuous breeding for an F1 cross it could throw up anything. That is where the knowledge of what lies behind the names on the papers come in and how they mesh. I guess the designer breeders would hopefully get a pretty good feel for what pairing of lines works and what doesnt, but it would certainly take a fair bit of experience.

  5. #195
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    LOL thats funny about the "green owners" only supporting cross breeding who know nothing about breeding or genetics.

    I am not a "green" dog owner.

    I am certainly not a know it all about these topics, but my Nana was a breeder (of toy poodles and GSD - not xbred, but its an odd mix of dogs to breed IMO) and one of the classes I took at high school and really enjoyed was genetics based. And I enjoy reading about genetic stuff out of interest as I thought one day I might like to breed one of the breeds I like (flag that though until a long way a way).

    Anyway, while I am not an expert at either, I have enough knowledge to be able to form an opinion on whether I think cross breds should be allowed or not.....

    Funny that any insults being thrown round, i.e. ignorant, naive, green (not hard out insults but I cant think of another word for how they are "meant" are only being thrown round by one side of the argument....are they necessary? I thought we were all grown ups here and as such entitled to have an opinion that may differ from someone else.

  6. #196
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    I have certainly been a green owner in my time. I also did genetics to university level and was still a green owner when at 24 many years ago I bought my first dog out of the paper as it so happens from an ANKC breeder, but I didnt know that at the time.

    There are only 3 dogs in my life out of many where I really started to try and understand about what I was getting and that was only after 2 of my dogs from similar lines were diagnosed with a genetic disease that I had never even heard of and had heartbreaking consequences for both myself and them. Then I got into working dogs when I moved onto a farm an soon realised that you just dont get a working breed and expect that it has the traits required to be a very good working dog.

    I also breed sheep and it is common to xbreed to get certain charateristics you like, but there is quite a lot of variability in F1 crosses and of course with sheep it is easy to cull what you dont want as they are being bred for meat.

    My mum picked a little labradoodle x labradoodle/ maltese out of a litter and every pup was different, some had straight hair, some curly, some looked like labs, some more like poodles etc. Another was picked by a friend and looks very like a shaggy lab now it is grown. This was the result of an F1 labradoodle crossed to another dog that was an F1 labradoodle crossed to a maltese. The pups had started to separate back out again, looking like maltese, laradoodles, shaggy labs all very different. This is going to be somewhat of a conundrum when you start breeding an F1 cross to something that may also be an F1 cross for example, the gentics become somewhat pot luck in the way they recombine. Fairly complex.


    Cross breeding doesnt particularly worry me, but knowing a few working dog breeders, they spend many long hours pondering over genetics and picking what matings they will do. They will look at each dog and weigh up what it brings to the table. They talk to other breeders, they look at the offspring with in each line and so on. They calculate inbredding coefficients, and how an outcross might work and how it might destabilise their lines. To me it requires a great deal of passion and experience. I like to pick a breeder that has this sort of knowledge and whose dogs are proven. I dont care if there is kelpie in my BC at some point as long as the breeder who put it there knew what they were doing.

    I would also think when picking a cross bred pup from a breeder you would like to know about other offspring and how the breeder came to choose that mating etc.

    Crossbreeding is always going to be there and there is no reason that it shouldnt in the right hands produce good dogs. Perhaps the answer would be as there is a governing body as the ANKC is for purebreds and the working registers are for quality working dogs, some sort of similar thing for crossbreeders. Maybe it would foster a code of ethics that need to be adhered to. Like with the other bodies it is never going to be perfect but may improve the situation somewhat. Maybe even provide some good training and research funding for inheited diseases as does the ANKC for its members.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 12-29-2011 at 05:14 PM.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Crossbreeding is always going to be there and there is no reason that it shouldnt in the right hands produce good dogs. Perhaps the answer would be as there is a governing body as the ANKC is for purebreds and the working registers are for quality working dogs, some sort of similar thing for crossbreeders. Maybe it would foster a code of ethics that need to be adhered to. Like with the other bodies it is never going to be perfect but may improve the situation somewhat. Maybe even provide some good training and research funding for inheited diseases as does the ANKC for its members.
    Yes!

  8. #198

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    I give up.

  9. #199

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    OT again sorry, I am quite astounded that it's only on the
    1'st July this year 2011 that the Australian National Kennel Council
    Limited became a reality with the Australian Securities and Investment Commission.
    It's been around since 1958! Someone must have shoved an ultra slow wick fire cracker up there butt or something lol.
    If you find yourself going through hell; Don't stay. Just keep on going.
    Beau.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    I have certainly been a green owner in my time. I also did genetics to university level and was still a green owner when at 24 many years ago I bought my first dog out of the paper as it so happens from an ANKC breeder, but I didnt know that at the time.

    There are only 3 dogs in my life out of many where I really started to try and understand about what I was getting and that was only after 2 of my dogs from similar lines were diagnosed with a genetic disease that I had never even heard of and had heartbreaking consequences for both myself and them. Then I got into working dogs when I moved onto a farm an soon realised that you just dont get a working breed and expect that it has the traits required to be a very good working dog.

    I also breed sheep and it is common to xbreed to get certain charateristics you like, but there is quite a lot of variability in F1 crosses and of course with sheep it is easy to cull what you dont want as they are being bred for meat.

    My mum picked a little labradoodle x labradoodle/ maltese out of a litter and every pup was different, some had straight hair, some curly, some looked like labs, some more like poodles etc. Another was picked by a friend and looks very like a shaggy lab now it is grown. This was the result of an F1 labradoodle crossed to another dog that was an F1 labradoodle crossed to a maltese. The pups had started to separate back out again, looking like maltese, laradoodles, shaggy labs all very different. This is going to be somewhat of a conundrum when you start breeding an F1 cross to something that may also be an F1 cross for example, the gentics become somewhat pot luck in the way they recombine. Fairly complex.


    Cross breeding doesnt particularly worry me, but knowing a few working dog breeders, they spend many long hours pondering over genetics and picking what matings they will do. They will look at each dog and weigh up what it brings to the table. They talk to other breeders, they look at the offspring with in each line and so on. They calculate inbredding coefficients, and how an outcross might work and how it might destabilise their lines. To me it requires a great deal of passion and experience. I like to pick a breeder that has this sort of knowledge and whose dogs are proven. I dont care if there is kelpie in my BC at some point as long as the breeder who put it there knew what they were doing.

    I would also think when picking a cross bred pup from a breeder you would like to know about other offspring and how the breeder came to choose that mating etc.

    Crossbreeding is always going to be there and there is no reason that it shouldnt in the right hands produce good dogs. Perhaps the answer would be as there is a governing body as the ANKC is for purebreds and the working registers are for quality working dogs, some sort of similar thing for crossbreeders. Maybe it would foster a code of ethics that need to be adhered to. Like with the other bodies it is never going to be perfect but may improve the situation somewhat. Maybe even provide some good training and research funding for inheited diseases as does the ANKC for its members.
    I agree with your last paragraph.

    Not sure I agree necessarily about farmers or working dog breeders necessarily pondering their breedings with lots of thought....I am pretty sure some just cross a really good dog, with another really good dog LOL...well not pretty sure, I know of some who do exactly just do that...oddly enough they usually get really good working pups from the cross but obviously not always.

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