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Thread: Your Thoughts on ANKC, Showing and the Outcomes for Dogs.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post
    Therefore the statement "...that a champion should only be fit to possess that title if they are fit, functional and free from genetic disorders" cannot be possible. If we are including the perception of the pet buying public, then your statement would be taken literally as well.

    Perhaps it should be worded that a champion should not only represent the breed in type, but also be the highest representation of health, and future health, for that breed.

    Overall I believe that change has to come from the top, and the way that the purebred dog world is structured is not in the best interests of the purebred world or is it an encouragement to the change that is needed. I also believe there to be a fair amount of 'doom and gloom' expressed that is exaggerated which greatly decreases the chance of 'good and proper' resolutions.
    Sounds good to me. I think that represents what I was getting at..
    I think when talking about 'free from genetic disorders' the default assumption would be that the dog doesn't have a disorder that is expressed genetically, and that it's a higher expectation that the dog isn't also a carrier.

  2. #62
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    As for written breed standards, it will always be open to interpretation and this is where the biggest issue arises. It isn't necessarily the standard, but the interpretation of that standard.

    The Pug is one such breed, due of interpretation, has been altered over the years. What was once a more leggy leaner dog with a snub face has become a short squat fatter dog with a snub face that is at risk of becoming concave if it is flattened any further.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post
    I can 100% understand why MAC feels defensive. Minibulls and Cav, you both use emotive arguments and you both know what you really want to say, but don't. I did say in an earlier thread about cav that her real feelings are bubbling away under the surface.

    I still must also say that I do not believe that you are in anyway an experienced Cav breeder nor possibly a registered breeder. Not that this has anything to do with this particular disucssion, however, I feel the need to state it at this time.
    I do not see what this has to do with this thread, if only registered and experienced breeders can have an opinion then how many would you say ought to post Anne.

    When an absolutely top CRUFTS winning Cavalier sire of up to thirty litters was bred by his owner who knew he had SM I don't think you need a hell of a lot of experience to start wondering what goes on in other registries and countries too.

    Would not the will to do better and breed as healthy as you can be more important than the ribbons that faulty dog won, leading to God knows what misery for a good number of buyers of his poor puppies.

    I have already shown that unexpected things can be hiding in a dog who in herself is healthy, only her pups would suffer if she were bred to another carrier, because we test, this will not happen.

    True we cannot test for everything but that is NO excuse for not testing for what you can, and I mean DNA tests not hip scores which have not gotten rid of
    HD in 30 years and probably never will do more than lower it because it is caused by too many things not just genes.

  4. #64

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    I still do not get what this has to do with showing though.

    Again, a dog does not HAVE to be bred from once it becomes a champion.
    It should HAVE to pass it's health tests to be bred from, but not shown. It just does not seem very fair to the buyers of the puppies who decide to show. They could have done all possible research into a breeder, yet still get a dog that has a genetic problem.
    Should they be stopped from showing and having a Champion, or should they just be stopped from BREEDING that dog.

  5. #65
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    Who said anything about registered breeders only being allowed to post? If this was so I WOULDN'T BE POSTING! I am NOT a breeder. Sometimes I really think people are reading some other htread? Honestly, is it so hard to actually read the comments made.

    Your post, Minibulls mum, is very defensive (something which you seemed to think that MAC was also doing and was not 'warranted'). Read what I have written, not what you 'think' is written.

    The manner of your response makes me think you feel I don't agree there is anything that requires changing which as anyone can see, that is not so.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    I still do not get what this has to do with showing though.

    Again, a dog does not HAVE to be bred from once it becomes a champion.
    It should HAVE to pass it's health tests to be bred from, but not shown. It just does not seem very fair to the buyers of the puppies who decide to show. They could have done all possible research into a breeder, yet still get a dog that has a genetic problem.
    Should they be stopped from showing and having a Champion, or should they just be stopped from BREEDING that dog.
    From my perspective of the thread, and my opinion, is that the focus of showing your dog and it being awarded 'champion' status has detracted from the more important issue of health.

    There needs to be a balance of both judgement against peers and health. The balance has tipped in the direction of judgement and this has been to the detriment of health.

    In having said that, I believe there is a turn around of this and the scales might once more be tipping back towards centre.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post
    From my perspective of the thread, and my opinion, is that the focus of showing your dog and it being awarded 'champion' status has detracted from the more important issue of health.

    There needs to be a balance of both judgement against peers and health. The balance has tipped in the direction of judgement and this has been to the detriment of health.

    In having said that, I believe there is a turn around of this and the scales might once more be tipping back towards centre.
    I agree, but take showing out of the equation and just focus on BREEDING healthy dogs.
    If there were rules in place that prevented people breeding dogs with genetic disorders then Champion or not doesn't enter into the equation.

    I think there is some heavy bias being put against people who show, and it isn't for the right reasons.

    Show people are going to be more likely to test for obvious problems like HD because let's face it, you can't show a dog hobbling and wobbling its way around the ring, so why wouldn't show breeders be more inclined to eradicate the problem in their lines?
    Yes there are the problems you can't see which need to be addressed, SM in Cavs is a good example as has been brought up in this thread. But it's not just a show dog problem.

    I know I harp on about education but unless there are actual rules brought in about breeding, then educating the buyers is the only way to stop the problem.
    Make it harder for the dodgy breeder to sell their sickly puppies.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post
    Who said anything about registered breeders only being allowed to post? If this was so I WOULDN'T BE POSTING! I am NOT a breeder. Sometimes I really think people are reading some other htread? Honestly, is it so hard to actually read the comments made.

    Your post, Minibulls mum, is very defensive (something which you seemed to think that MAC was also doing and was not 'warranted'). Read what I have written, not what you 'think' is written.

    The manner of your response makes me think you feel I don't agree there is anything that requires changing which as anyone can see, that is not so.
    Just goes to show we ought not to think we are psychic 'eh, I was actually amused that the op asks do we think the ANKC is doing enough re dogs ect, and you took so long to get back with basically a reply affirming that your thoughts are pretty much the same darn thing Cavs thinks, except they asked………. to cut your long story short, you have stated YES change needs to come from the top.

    The top, Anne, in Australia at least, is the ANKC.
    .
    I like your posts because they often lighten up what might be in danger of becoming too serious a subject, never have I seen a person with such talent for being on the same page yet trying to seem as if they have a different view to other posters.


    You are right too in saying I read what I thought you meant, I did just that, was just trying to make sense of that particular post which otherwise seems apropos of absolutely nothing. Not actually in defensive mode either, was still laughing over the earlier post.

    So it is just a case of a non-breeder commenting on their perceived idea of another poster's breeding experience end of……….ok…….I see.

    Got to go do some stuff, parting thought for the ones who are on about an imperfect (genes wise, or otherwise known to have a fault it may pass on ) dog being shown to get championship that ought to be a no brainer for goodness sake, show all you like why not, it is a thing a family might enjoy with their pet, just ought to rules about breeding untested dogs.


    Was an intereseting thread until it got sidetracked.

  9. #69
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    Oh wow, what a lovely post. Typical of your style though isn't it?

    Its a tad hypocritical of you to claim that this 'was an interesting thread until it got side-tracked' don't you think? I guess your post is not a side track. Your post; one which adds nothing at all to the thread and is nothing but a grammatical mess of assumptions, petty comments and innuendo?

    Thanks for the laugh though, It came in handy today.

    Yes, the top is the ANKC. However, the ANKC does not have absolute power to create policy as it sees fit. I would have thought, that as you're a 'breeder' of self proclaimed greatness, that you would know how the structure works. It is impossible for the ANKC to change anything without the state associations voting in agreement and this is where the issues start. But, as breeder, of course you know that... don't you?

    CL - yes, I agree we should take showing out of the equation, but I seriously don’t think you can with the current structure. The two, showing and breeding, are intrinsically grouped and have been for years. So much so, that has been stated several times in the thread, the public believe that a Champion is the highest quality dog to own. If we then determine that the ‘Champion’ does not hold merit and that pet buyers should ignore the idea of a Champion dog being the best, then we add credence to the issue that the show world is nothing more than a ‘beauty contest’.

    Does anyone know the history of showing? Purpose, intent and outcome?
    Last edited by Anne; 07-26-2011 at 09:30 AM.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post
    I can 100% understand why MAC feels defensive. Minibulls and Cav, you both use emotive arguments and you both know what you really want to say, but don't. I did say in an earlier thread about cav that her real feelings are bubbling away under the surface.

    I still must also say that I do not believe that you are in anyway an experienced Cav breeder nor possibly a registered breeder. Not that this has anything to do with this particular disucssion, however, I feel the need to state it at this time.
    Thank you Anne for your honest and well balanced posts prior to this one.

    I am not sure what the problem is you have with me, and WHY you feel I am not a cav breeder nor registered????
    You dont know me? My opinion on some subjects do not always in aggreance with yours, but that does NOT automatically make me a liar or some kind of moronic BYB as you are inferring.
    I have NOT personally attacked anyone here yet have had numerous personal snipes at myself? These are PRACTICES I am disscussing here? I am not trying to figure out how many breeders you have with genetic defects or has the someone else here had there animals tested, I dont believe the ANKC and assoc branches have protected the interests of purebred dogs over the centuries and wonder WHY, with 500 genetic disorders in 400 breeds...no one is trying to make changes here????? But I am NOT judging your particular practices or anyone elses. I have as much right to put my opinion forward as you do!!! There are some great posters here who have valuable experience and ethics, and dont feel the need to put others down to make themselves feel better like you do....so get off my case and stop your petty BS!

    Or better still, ban me as I have seen done to the others who hold a different view of animal welfare than you.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

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