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Thread: Your Thoughts on ANKC, Showing and the Outcomes for Dogs.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    Re: Dogs needing to be champions before being bred.

    Again I have an agree and disagree dilemma.

    Although one of my dogs is already a champion, before he earned the title he had won quite a few awards.
    Not long ago he broke a tooth which had to be removed.
    I have yet to see if this will affect him in the show ring.

    The tooth was there, it was in a normal position, correct for the breed. BUT now it's missing, he may be penalized heavily for it.

    If he broke it before he became a champion does that mean he is not good enough for breeding?

    Another example I have is with my Crested. His mother was untitled when she was bred from. She has never gained her title, she was only shown a couple of times as a temperament test.
    Cyrus's mum is a powderpuff crested, the coated variety. She is a nice honest bitch, yet she was already at a severe disadvantage in the show ring for having hair.
    Even if she had have been the best thing since sliced bread, there is no guarantee she would have gained her title as preference is nearly always given to the hairless variety by judges.
    Cresteds MUST be interbred, you cannot breed hairless without having powderpuffs in the line.

    Then there's a third factor. What if a dog has a cosmetic fault that causes them to lose, or come second every week.
    A common problem in my breed which I will admit mine has is his tail is too tight. It curves over his back rather than in a sabre. Do I put him in the "no good" pile because of this one fault? Or do I find a bitch that compliments him and has a good tail set to improve it, hoping the next generation will gain the good qualities from both dogs?

    I agree with MAC, it's not the breed standards that are ruining some breeds, it's some breeders and to a lesser extent, the judges.

    I will use GSD's as it's an extreme example. If a judge puts up a GSD with it's bum on the ground week after week for Best in Show the other breeders are going to follow suit.
    Now who is to blame there, the judges who continually put up the exaggerated dog every week, or the breeders who are seeking a winner?
    There ARE honest breeders out there who do not just seek the next big win (although it would be nice) there are good breeders who try to improve the breed, keep it healthy, working and to the standard.
    These are the breeders who should be put on a pedestal as an example to others... yet people only seem to pick out the bad ones to "make an example of them", when really we should be picking out the good breeders and trying to get everyone to follow their lead.
    Hi crested, not sure a broken tooth would constitute a genetic disorder, and if your baby has all the other attributes...his tooth in reality should not stop him being a champion...but you know it probably will, how ridiculas is that!

    If judges award or title a dog with certain breed standards that have been grossly exagerated via breeding for that trait, which causes the animals discomfort, lack of function or pain, it is ultimatley the fault of the ANKC for condoning such exagerations of breed standards or having those traits in breed standards in the first place.

    Should the ANKC be focusing on and RE EDUCATING judges who award exagerated and often disfunctional traits? Shouldnt they be redefining breed standards especially in those breeds who are suffering serious consequences?

    >>Cresteds MUST be interbred, you cannot breed hairless without having powderpuffs in the line.<<<

    What genetic disorders do crested's have? Do you agree with the ANKC breed standard for your little ones?
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    Re: Dogs needing to be champions before being bred.

    These are the breeders who should be put on a pedestal as an example to others... yet people only seem to pick out the bad ones to "make an example of them", when really we should be picking out the good breeders and trying to get everyone to follow their lead.
    I agree crested, but we focus on the bad elements in breeders in the hope of change, the ethical breeders should be on a pedestal, because it is SOLEY though there selfless efforts we are able to have any healthy purebreds today. Thats why we need to be promoting changes to the ANKC breed standards, re educating judges, implimenting mandatory heath testing and focusing on stratagies to ensure health, functionality and fitness become the number one priority for the ANKC. That is the way we can support ethical breeders.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    I wish the Judges would remember when dogs are bred for working. I will use my own breed as an example. Some have such gorgeous coats and i appreciate all the work in the coats. But how does that dog work in the water, doing what it is supposed to do. And when you feel some of those dogs they have no muscle mass, which is required for swimming long distance and carting.
    I am not saying all dogs should be working, but a dog should not be penalized for having a working coat, which is beautiful and well kept.
    I have been very lucky lately where a couple of Judges have gone over the dogs and felt the dogs from top to bottom, instead of a quick skim and looking. So we have been able to do well. I would love people to follow the standard and also allow their dogs to do what they were bred to do. or at least breed them so that they are able to do it.
    Some lines of newfies have lost their natural need to rescue and swim, I think that is sad. They have been bred for softer and silkier coats (which are no good for swimming long distance), instead of the quite rough guard hairs they should have.
    And some have become too large/bulky and have changed their facial structure
    Glad you have been doing well. My opinion would be that champion traits would be those that the dog was originally bred for? Somewhere in the last 100 years we have got it so wrong! I wonder how long it will be till your newfoundlands begin to look like "poodles" - ooops wait, hold off on the replies I was ONLY JOKING .
    Many moons ago newfie, I had a good friend who bred newfoundlands. I remember going to her house every sat night and having fish and chips for dinner with her 4 huge newfies who's mouths reached onto the table effortlessly and slobbered all over our dinner . Ohh, i loved those gentle giants anyway.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
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  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by cavalierqld View Post
    Hi crested, not sure a broken tooth would constitute a genetic disorder, and if your baby has all the other attributes...his tooth in reality should not stop him being a champion...but you know it probably will, how ridiculas is that!

    If judges award or title a dog with certain breed standards that have been grossly exagerated via breeding for that trait, which causes the animals discomfort, lack of function or pain, it is ultimatley the fault of the ANKC for condoning such exagerations of breed standards or having those traits in breed standards in the first place.

    Should the ANKC be focusing on and RE EDUCATING judges who award exagerated and often disfunctional traits? Shouldnt they be redefining breed standards especially in those breeds who are suffering serious consequences?

    >>Cresteds MUST be interbred, you cannot breed hairless without having powderpuffs in the line.<<<

    What genetic disorders do crested's have? Do you agree with the ANKC breed standard for your little ones?
    When someone decides to become a judge they have theory exams after studying breed standards.
    After the theory comes the practical, actual judging of dogs with supervision.
    Yes, the supervisors are elected and act on behalf of the ANKC, but once the training and exams are over the new judges think for themselves. They can't have an ANKC rep at every show making sure the judges do the right thing.

    I have seen dogs non-awarded before, but not nearly as much as they should be. I think during judges training more emphasis should be put towards penalizing over exaggerated characteristics as you said.

    With Cresteds there are a few problems within the breed, PRA being the most common. It is testable and completely avoidable.
    Patella issues are not something that can be genetically tested for, but is an easy problem to detect in both young and old dogs.
    Skin problems are an obvious one, breeders naturally try to use only the dogs with the clearest, healthiest skin, but again, there are no tests to determine what is good or bad skin, it's all using your best judgement.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minibulls mum View Post
    Crested, I wonder why you post those pics, if your breed has not been exaggerated over the years, is not in any particular trouble then it is one of the breeds that do not require any intervention from anyone for goodness sake.
    You post photos of one dog with hair and one with little, does that not still occur? body shape looks improved, but was one simply a shite photo? not a lot has changed, so maybe they do not need any intervention either, as for defects it seems some sites think they do have a few.

    Taken from here Chinese Crested Dog - Canada's Guide to Dogs )
    (If you are considering the adoption of a Chinese Crested puppy, or any breed, it is very important to be selective in choosing a responsible and reputable breeder. Ensure that the prospective puppy's parents have all health clearances. Breeding of any dog should not be done until after they have been proven to be free of evidence of significant hereditary diseases. (For more information on selecting a breeder, see the articles on the main Breed Listing and Breeders page.)
     Patellar Luxation
     Legg-Calve-Perthes Disease
     Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)
     Deafness

    Not a long list compared to many breeds, but more important and more informative than how much hair a dog has, or whether it now stands more proudly would be to mention what you do to ensure you do not have any of these little nasties in your lines.

    I am sure you do test, but you do need to mention it along with those pics because we might not all have read posts where you have mentioned what you and other good breeders do.

    A missing tooth??????????? important?????????????

    We were discussing forum and function and how people have exaggerated characteristics of breeds over the years.
    I was simply making a point that not all breeds have been exaggerated and as you pointed out, little has changed about the crested other than the hair, purely cosmetic.

    I cannot comment on the health of dogs from the early 1900's as the test were not available.

    And yes, a missing tooth can and often is penalized in the show ring. The Canadian breed standard states that a Chinese Crested should NOT be penalized for missing teeth, but unfortunately the Australian standard is lacking this piece of information and judges can only go on what they are given.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby mc nugget View Post
    dos any one know if i can res ngget as papered the olny proben is that her dad is not reser
    Sorry Ruby, pedigree must go back 5 generations on each side. There really is no way to prove the dad was a purebred without papers.

    And yes, they look like little stallions running around

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    Sorry Ruby, pedigree must go back 5 generations on each side. There really is no way to prove the dad was a purebred without papers.

    And yes, they look like little stallions running around
    i do i have prove pedigree lines that go back to 1963 thats like 20 generations
    If you are reading this then you're doing just fine as to
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  8. #48

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    You have to have both the mum and dad registered with main register papers that go back 5 generations. So if the dad is not registered and doesn't have papers you can't get papers for the puppy.

  9. #49
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    I'm well aware of the mutation Myostatin Gene.

    And here is where the conformation show ring actually does a breed justice.

    Bully Whippets can be detected not just thru testing but also from sight. You can pick a "bully" whippet even in young puppies. The double muscling and short jaw is highly visible.

    By breeding for looks and a softer dog, not as heavily muscled and not for professional racing conformation breeders have done the breed justice.

    I'm also aware of Wendy the Whippet and how often her picture gets trotted out.

    Genetic eye defects are also not prevalent in the breed. Though is coming out in the US. We however have a different standard than the US, using the UK's standard & breeders getting dogs from the US do want proof their dogs are clear.

    My stud dog is from a dual sired litter so all DNA testing was carried out, afterall why stop short but I will not go hunting down problems in my bitches.

    HD is almost unheard of in the breed should I also send off for xrays just in case?

  10. #50
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    I think what I find most disturbing about threads like this is that it is preaching to people who may be steered away from pedigree dogs and those that strive very hard to supply both a healthy dog and a good looking dog to believing that most breeders only breed for looks, money, and glory.

    Already there was a previous thread about breeders re-homing and how they can justify doing so.

    Dog show people are well aware that mandatory DNA profiling and testing will soon be mandatory, as with application for in-breeding.

    Am I defensive? Yes I am.
    Last edited by MAC; 07-24-2011 at 10:02 AM.

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