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Thread: Your Thoughts on ANKC, Showing and the Outcomes for Dogs.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
    You know time and time again I read that people don't care if a dog is a champion or not, so why does everyone involve them self in this argument.

    just stick to a breeder who health tests and offers no more. Why is everyone so involved in an area that have no time for???

    Yeah some testing now is cheaper, but if I'm going to go look for problems that's when things get expensive. And if you can find me a place that X-rays are not expensive then point me in that direction.

    There is no reason to test a Whippet, there is no health problems in the breed.

    I think someone already said those that care for their breed are already doing the necessary testing, they don't need anyone telling them to do so. And those that don't never will.

    Really I think some people put more thought into buying a fridge than they do their dog. As a living breathing creature that people want to pay as little as possible for people sure do want a lot. Plus they want to involve themselves in something that they neither believe in or participate in.
    I think a lot of people are concerned about where wide array of genetic diseases within purebred dogs today, and the ANKC seems either unwilling or unable to modify its breed standards. How should the purebred be redefined, so that health and utility are equal to type?

    And how can individual breeders modify their professional tactics in a manner that incorporates suitable canine welfare standards? The suggestion of mandatory health checking is one stratagy we can initiate to start the ball rolling on the recovery of functionality, fitness and health in purebreds.
    In the past hundred years or so, purebreds have collected 500 different genetic defects.
    Today, many of the resultant dog breeds are no longer capable of performing the tasks for which they were originally bred, due to the anatomical and/or physiological deformations that kennel clubs have imposed upon them.

    Do you think a good first step would be for kennel clubs to open all dog breed registries to allow an increase in genetic variation ? I am wondering why ANKC is not addressing the issues, they know exist, and why has it been put in the to hard basket for so long. Dogs are suffering!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
    As for registering for shows, you want breeders to genetically test their dogs at 3 months of age, before they have even worked out if the dog has potential?
    I think the idea is that parents health tests would cover them for the first year, then they would be independantly tested.

  3. #23

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    I am wondering why ANKC is not addressing the issues, they know exist, and why has it been put in the to hard basket for so long. Dogs are suffering!
    Dogs are suffering because of peoples stupidity, not because of the ANKC.

  4. #24
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    Doesn't a hip score require a dog to be put under general anaesthetic for X rays to be taken - which may still be inconclusive or just blurry?

    It does cost a lot of money to get a dog tested for all likely problems.

    But ANKC has some breed standards that seem to encourage unhealthy breeding - eg the bulldog standard says something about "the larger the better" regards head size. A bit about "healthy" is put right at the end and is the dog "healthy" if it needs a c-section to be born and can't breathe properly when it runs?

    And on one site popular with breeders - there are lots and lots of SBT breeders selling "blue" staffies that have all sorts of skin problems. And "blue" SBT mostly don't have the "black nose" required on the breed standard. I don't know if these people show or not but they are registered with ANKC but what they're doing in selecting for blue (with skin problems) seems bad for the breed.

    I think you've got more chance of getting a responsible dog breeder if they're registered with ANKC but it's not guaranteed. There are still dodgy people registered with ANKC. There's just more chance of getting dodgy dog breeders among the breeders who are not registered at all.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 07-22-2011 at 11:38 PM.

  5. #25
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    And here's a thought that I could live with.

    Any dog/bitch before breeding from must:
    1. Be a Champion and
    2. Be cleared of all relevant health problems for it's breed.

    That way people don't have to think at all.

    My dogs are both functional, fit and champions, yesterdays dead rabbit can attest to that.

    And yes even back around 1875 the when I believe the first standard was written for the Bulldog it was stated that the head was large, one of the more notable features of the breed.

    Bad breeders wrecks breeds not standards.

    I can't say I spend too much time around the terrier ring but at the same time I see very few blue SBT around shows, so this would lead me to believe that we cannot blame breeders who show and the standard for poor quality Blue SBT. Public demand is what is driving bad breeders to breed poor quality blues. And I guess there are also some very good quality blues, but as per usual we probably don't hear about them.
    Last edited by MAC; 07-23-2011 at 07:27 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    I did the DNA stuff, It is actually the X-rays that I meant as expensive. Having the dogs anaestetised and such, when you add it all up it is expensive.

    And still one of the most important thing we have left out.....Temperament, so very important
    Yes it is expensive Newfsie and the least reliable for preventing problems too,being no guarantee against puppies getting dysplasia, at least once you know what is or is not in your lines through DNA you often need not do it again

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
    And here's a thought that I could live with.

    Any dog/bitch before breeding from must:
    1. Be a Champion and
    2. Be cleared of all relevant health problems for it's breed.

    That way people don't have to think at all.

    My dogs are both functional, fit and champions, yesterdays dead rabbit can attest to that.

    And yes even back around 1875 the when I believe the first standard was written for the Bulldog it was stated that the head was large, one of the more notable features of the breed.

    Bad breeders wrecks breeds not standards.

    I can't say I spend too much time around the terrier ring but at the same time I see very few blue SBT around shows, so this would lead me to believe that we cannot blame breeders who show and the standard for poor quality Blue SBT. Public demand is what is driving bad breeders to breed poor quality blues. And I guess there are also some very good quality blues, but as per usual we probably don't hear about them.
    This is so true, bad breeding does wreck breeds, however should not the registering bodies who have no problems telling us in so many ways what we may or may not do, take a stand when breeds start to slide into the ridiculous when it comes to what is merely fashionable not functional?

    After all Mac, many new breeders are just accepting exaggerated traits because they are being rewarded in the show ring, so there really is more to this than just bad breeders. Bad standards would be a better way to describe it I think.

    As to blues in SBT again many of those clearly breeding for blues are sporting the Dogs QLD emblem for breeders of excellence, which puts them a cut above the ordinary old registered breeder, makes a bit of a joke of standards does it not.

  8. #28
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    I don't see anything wrong with the standard of my breed.

    Certainly I have a type and therefore don't always win under some judges & never will.

    But me like many people who show don't compromise our view of the standard based on winning.

    And we are more than capable of combining both looks and health. I took an 8 year break from the show ring, when I came back far more breeders stringently test their dogs than ever before. So I am seeing steps forward.

    Far more breeders offer to take pups/dogs back and offer cash back on de-sexing like myself.

    We are making huge changes to accommodate the pet buying public.

    I'm starting to feel that really I should just resign myself to becoming a kennel blind BYB.

    If people don't like the ANKC why are they members? Should the show side of the ANKC close down I doubt they would last long at all.

  9. #29

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    Re: Dogs needing to be champions before being bred.

    Again I have an agree and disagree dilemma.

    Although one of my dogs is already a champion, before he earned the title he had won quite a few awards.
    Not long ago he broke a tooth which had to be removed.
    I have yet to see if this will affect him in the show ring.

    The tooth was there, it was in a normal position, correct for the breed. BUT now it's missing, he may be penalized heavily for it.

    If he broke it before he became a champion does that mean he is not good enough for breeding?

    Another example I have is with my Crested. His mother was untitled when she was bred from. She has never gained her title, she was only shown a couple of times as a temperament test.
    Cyrus's mum is a powderpuff crested, the coated variety. She is a nice honest bitch, yet she was already at a severe disadvantage in the show ring for having hair.
    Even if she had have been the best thing since sliced bread, there is no guarantee she would have gained her title as preference is nearly always given to the hairless variety by judges.
    Cresteds MUST be interbred, you cannot breed hairless without having powderpuffs in the line.

    Then there's a third factor. What if a dog has a cosmetic fault that causes them to lose, or come second every week.
    A common problem in my breed which I will admit mine has is his tail is too tight. It curves over his back rather than in a sabre. Do I put him in the "no good" pile because of this one fault? Or do I find a bitch that compliments him and has a good tail set to improve it, hoping the next generation will gain the good qualities from both dogs?

    I agree with MAC, it's not the breed standards that are ruining some breeds, it's some breeders and to a lesser extent, the judges.

    I will use GSD's as it's an extreme example. If a judge puts up a GSD with it's bum on the ground week after week for Best in Show the other breeders are going to follow suit.
    Now who is to blame there, the judges who continually put up the exaggerated dog every week, or the breeders who are seeking a winner?
    There ARE honest breeders out there who do not just seek the next big win (although it would be nice) there are good breeders who try to improve the breed, keep it healthy, working and to the standard.
    These are the breeders who should be put on a pedestal as an example to others... yet people only seem to pick out the bad ones to "make an example of them", when really we should be picking out the good breeders and trying to get everyone to follow their lead.

  10. #30

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    Here is an example of the Chinese Crested and how it has changed.
    The only major difference over the past 100 years has been an increase in the fullness of the crest and feathering.
    The structure of the breed has barely changed in a century.

    The photos I have found are not the best sorry, first is from the early 1900's, it shows a Cobby type Crested, the Cobb type is not as popular in Australia.
    The second shows a Deer type Crested from this century. Deer type has a finer body so don't mistake this as the whole breed becoming finer.


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