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Thread: Your Thoughts on ANKC, Showing and the Outcomes for Dogs.

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Di_dee1 View Post
    Probably the bulk of the general public have no idea of possible health problems with the breed they selected to buy. If it is from championship lines then it is just tough luck if the breeder did not bother or wish to test?
    That confirmation to breed standard in appearance is all that mattered?
    More education to the general public is needed.
    I agree, a lot of people who don't have much idea about breeding will go "Ooooh look it's parents are champions, it must be good" when we all know that's not always the case.

    There has been more coverage about buying from reputable breeders on television, but then you have that idiot TV host promoting puppy mills destroying it all.

  2. #12
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    As to Championships........Some people drive a lot of miles to get points. But that can't be helped often, because some breeds are not as common. But it would be great if Judges told Owners that they would not give the Challenge to a particular dog, because they were not worthy of the points. And it would also be great if showing the dog and winning was all about the dog and its conformation. But the Dog World is definitely not perfect.
    I mean why should it matter what the Handler wears, as long as it is tidy. And how many shiny objects are on the show lead. And who the handler/Owner is...........
    Pets are forever

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
    You send me a bucket load of money and I'll send my champions off for testing.

    What diseases would you like to start with? None are prolific in my breed. At what age would you like them sent off for testing? Who is going to pay for the extra resources to implement all of this, the breeders of course. Who is willing to pay more for a puppy? I think the only people who will come out on top will be the vets.

    I also have a Gordon Setter. The Gordon Setter Club already has it's members forward them the results of their required genetic testing, they are published in their newsletter for all members to see. That way breeders can select outside stock based on good looks AND good genes. Not that they need to really publish them anywhere they know what tests to ask for before using a stud.

    Contrary to popular believe many many breeders do not need a governing or controlling body to do the right thing.

    So what if a dog is a champion but not genetically sound for breeding. Ask for proof of paperwork and if you don't like what you see go to a breeder who has dogs that "pass all the health testing" and are champions.

    I don't give a toss if a dog is a champion, but not genetically sound, judges can put it up above my dog and it still wouldn't worry me. It will only worry me when it comes to breeding from that dog and since most breeders wouldn't select to use said dog where is the problem? How does that impact on anyone other than other show people.

    Should I also get cheesed off at the person who shows their champion dog, free of genetic diseases with all the paperwork to prove it but doesn't want to breed from it. Plenty of people do that too.

    People keep saying that they have no interest in whether their puppy comes from champion stock. They are interested in seeing the results of relevant health testing and temperament. My last litter was bred from two dogs that hadn't yet completed their championships, not one puppy buyer cared. My next litter due next month will come from two champions, again I doubt this will impact on potential buyers unless they are interested in showing/breeding from said puppy. Will there be any difference in price between the puppies of this litter and the last - no because I know it is of no interest to the general pet buying public.

    So the only importance of whether a dog is a champion and genetically sound is to other registered breeders who thru word of mouth already know.

    It is hard enough and expensive enough being a dog breeder and showie, make it any more complicated and only the rich will be involved, it will become a business, swamped in paperwork.

    Why don't people start taking responsibility for what they buy.
    Because they believe the 'buy from a registered ethical breeder' crap and think that = healthy, which we breeders all know does not.

    DNA tests today do NOT cost all that much and there is no excuse whatever for not doing them, you can now test any dog, cross or pure for up to 47 DNA based problems through ASAP, if you are serious you would do it for the cost of less than $200 per dog, in this day and age when many pups cost up to and sometime well over $1,000 buyers DO want health tested.

    Champions for pet buyers is not a biggy but fit and healthy IS

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    In A perfect world, where vets would not charge the earth everyone would get their dogs health checked........

    I know that I would before Breeding. I so far have had our male tested, both health and orthopedic. And our female is so far health tested, but I will wait with her orthopedic stuff until she is a little older.

    That said, some issues such as HD/elbows can be caused by how the dog has been raised. Both parents can be great and it can still happen. the same with bloat, it might be due to diet/exercise/volume, quality of food and or stress. And it could be hereditary.

    I am a firm believer in testing for cardiac (aortic stenosis, SAS) problems and cystinuria (?spelling), eyes (ectropian, endtropian, catartact) Thyroid problems and von Willibrands Dx in my particular breed. And a few others. But it is very expensive to do these Health tests and that might be why some do not do it.

    I am also a believer in having a Breed mentor...Someone who has been there and done that to improve the breed
    Hey Newfsie, it is not expensive any longer go to ASAP site and have a look, you can do all known tests and more for bugger all, it does take a while to get all results back but we have done all our dogs including cross breds for over 40 known conditions that DNA will show, for sure there are many others, that is no excuse for not doing what you can if you are selling pups you need to be able to prove you have done more than get show ribbons, buyers are mostly wanting pets, they do not want the heartbreak of losing those pets early in life due to things which could have been prevented.

    The things we cannot test for they (the buyers) need to run the the risk for sure, but time is here that we breeders need to be seen to do all we can to prevent what can be prevented and that is not happening and the ANKC is not doing enough.

    (just a a bit of a rant, time is short got to go Newfsie, not in any way is all that aimed at you, just thought you might like to know there is a cheap place to get tests done 8>)

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    More education to the general public is needed.
    I agree, a lot of people who don't have much idea about breeding will go "Ooooh look it's parents are champions, it must be good" when we all know that's not always the case.

    There has been more coverage about buying from reputable breeders on television, but then you have that idiot TV host promoting puppy mills destroying it all.
    No, it is the other way around the public is waking up to the fact that a pet pup ought to have a fair chance of being also a healthy pup.

    Now serious breeders will start to A test. and B offer replacements for failed pups if they want to call themselves ethical.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minibulls mum View Post
    Hey Newfsie, it is not expensive any longer go to ASAP site and have a look, you can do all known tests and more for bugger all, it does take a while to get all results back but we have done all our dogs including cross breds for over 40 known conditions that DNA will show, for sure there are many others, that is no excuse for not doing what you can if you are selling pups you need to be able to prove you have done more than get show ribbons, buyers are mostly wanting pets, they do not want the heartbreak of losing those pets early in life due to things which could have been prevented.

    The things we cannot test for they (the buyers) need to run the the risk for sure, but time is here that we breeders need to be seen to do all we can to prevent what can be prevented and that is not happening and the ANKC is not doing enough.

    (just a a bit of a rant, time is short got to go Newfsie, not in any way is all that aimed at you, just thought you might like to know there is a cheap place to get tests done 8>)
    I did the DNA stuff, It is actually the X-rays that I meant as expensive. Having the dogs anaestetised and such, when you add it all up it is expensive.

    And still one of the most important thing we have left out.....Temperament, so very important
    Pets are forever

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minibulls mum View Post
    No, it is the other way around the public is waking up to the fact that a pet pup ought to have a fair chance of being also a healthy pup.

    Now serious breeders will start to A test. and B offer replacements for failed pups if they want to call themselves ethical.
    If that were true then we would have no puppy farms, yet they still do a roaring trade.

    The more education you have, the less trade BYB's will do and the more popular ethical breeders will become... in turn hopefully making some BYB's become more ethical.

    The dodgy breeders know they should health test, but they don't because they know there will always be some sucker out there buying their unhealthy dogs.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimbastaff View Post
    I can't see how testing a dog once it becomes a champion is going to make any difference to anyone.. honest people will remain honest, dishonest people will remain dishonest that will never change..
    Hi kimba, I think the stratagy is for mandatory health testing of breeding dogs before they are bred and show dogs before they can register for shows. I think the idea is to weed out the breeders who breed from champions despite the animal having genetic disorders, thereby in theory reducing the passing on of of these disorders. If the breeders want to show, and there dogs do not pass the testing, they will never become champions.

  9. #19
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    You know time and time again I read that people don't care if a dog is a champion or not, so why does everyone involve them self in this argument.

    just stick to a breeder who health tests and offers no more. Why is everyone so involved in an area that have no time for???

    Yeah some testing now is cheaper, but if I'm going to go look for problems that's when things get expensive. And if you can find me a place that X-rays are not expensive then point me in that direction.

    There is no reason to test a Whippet, there is no health problems in the breed.

    I think someone already said those that care for their breed are already doing the necessary testing, they don't need anyone telling them to do so. And those that don't never will.

    Really I think some people put more thought into buying a fridge than they do their dog. As a living breathing creature that people want to pay as little as possible for people sure do want a lot. Plus they want to involve themselves in something that they neither believe in or participate in.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavalierqld View Post
    Hi kimba, I think the stratagy is for mandatory health testing of breeding dogs before they are bred and show dogs before they can register for shows. I think the idea is to weed out the breeders who breed from champions despite the animal having genetic disorders, thereby in theory reducing the passing on of of these disorders. If the breeders want to show, and there dogs do not pass the testing, they will never become champions.
    And you really think being a non champion will stop people from breeding. If so you actually have not been in the show world if you believe that.

    My last litter was from two dogs that had not yet completed their championships.

    As for registering for shows, you want breeders to genetically test their dogs at 3 months of age, before they have even worked out if the dog has potential? You want them to test said dog before it can be awarded it's championship when thru it's parents testing should be free of health problems in the first place.

    Again, I think you really do not know how shows work.

    Nil awarding does happen, happened at the last sight hound show I attended with the Irish Wolfhounds.

    Showing is part of being a team. Dress nice and you add to the whole picture. I have some nice show leads with beading on them, so what, I like them, they are inexpensive to buy, feel nice and I colour code them to the dog so as to not interfere with the outline of the dog.

    Right now there are plenty of ethical breeders who do the necessary testing of their champion stock, if the public can't find them now, what makes you think that changing them will make the public go to a registered breeder over a pet shop puppy?

    Really I do everything necessary to ensure a healthy Whippet, if I had a breed that had health problems I would do the necessary testing, I wouldn't need anyone to tell me to do it either. I charge a reasonable price for my whippets, screen new owners very carefully, only breed when I want to add to my own fur family not for the sake of selling to other people, in fact I'd be more than happy if my bitches all just produced one good puppy for me. I am the alternate contact number on the microchip of my puppies and the pup/dog can be returned to me at any time throughout it's lifetime.

    Am I the only person doing that - no, plenty of other registered breeder who participate in showing their dogs do.

    I also really love how people have so much to say on something that they themselves are not involved in or understand how it runs. I also love how people say they have no regard for the standard yet will ring up expecting to find perfectly evenly marked dogs, in a certain colour, generally bloody blue or one of the rarer colours of whatever their chosen breed is and tell me the public doesn't care for looks.

    Really I don't know why I bother have good looking dogs, should just go buy a couple of average looking dogs, stay at home, breed and make money, oh then i'm a BYB - can't win.
    Last edited by MAC; 07-22-2011 at 10:33 PM.

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