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Thread: Can You Inbreed Pedigree Dogs??

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson View Post
    There are three methods or "tools" used for breeding and all have there place.
    Inbreeding / line breeding/ out cross/ . Inbreeding has been used for years by the cattle industry and horse racing industry to keep desirable positive genetic traits going.
    The Angus cow was set in type by ONE bull back years ago and are one of the healthiest breeds of cattle around, lions and Tigers have been doing this forever with out any human intervention where are only the strongest and smartest survive.
    Inbreeding should only ever be used though by the most experienced of dog breeders who have been breeding for years and years, I have not used this method but by no means am I knocking it, it has its place.

    Line breeding is NOT inbreeding, it is a method used a lot by breeders of all types , cows , horses , canines etc and has proven to be a reliable healthy
    way of keeping type and health in a specific blood line.

    Out cross / Another great tool for breeders to freshen up blood and bring in Hybrid Vigor but can cause serious problems if done generation after generation in losing type and watering down a line, can also bring a combination of unforeseen health problems , a very useful handy tool though in correct breeding.

    As you can see all three have there place with line breeding mixed with outcrossing being probably the most used and safest method, there are over 300 million genetic possibilities in any one pairing.

    Hope this helps .
    This IS a great topic, and THIS is good information ON TOPIC. Thankyou.

    Please don't ruin a great topic, or your own reputation with a personal beef with another contributor. That's what PM's are for.

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minibulls mum View Post
    Sort of operational again, but still freezing, so keeping it short, will start another thread when I get time which proberbly will not be before mid March, this person who has hi jacked the thread is not putting up much actual info on Neos, nor, I notice has he or she had the guts to identify themsevles.

    It will take me some time for me to A fix 'puter and B look up some info I have to make sure it is all spot on, and I have a few things to do too,dogs come first, not forums but for those who have, or my be interested in Neos I will put up more info not usually available.
    I would not do this had this person not started this, it has never been my intention to even appear to 'push' my own dogs, but such an attack does deserve to be redressed.

    Until I get to do so more fully, consider this, it is known that the Italian farmers who were guardians of this breed prior to a pommy and a few Italians deciding to comercialise them, had kept them very much to themselves for many hundreds of years, yet, we are here told by some unidentified soul what is the 'correct Italian type' after only sixty odd years of breeding, the commercial Neo is better than the real working dogs the Italians kept to themselves for hundreds of years ???

    Only breeder I ever knew in Tassie years ago in the 1990's had only inbred dogs, brother sister matings and so on and on, that you old mate???, don't just show us your dogs throw their pedigrees up too, from way back then.

    I will be baaaaaaaaaaaack


    Firstly , hope you have your puter fixed soon. Sad isn't it when we suffer almost withdrawals when we cant access them

    As to the rest of your post ; its very interesting to note that there are great similarities between the happenings in your breed and much the same has happened/is happening amongst the APBT/Amstaff.
    Such as those that will say the Amstaff is the superior dog/type to the APBT. Bearing in mind,just as the Amstaff is the younger 'breed' , they were bred from no other stock apart from the few hand picked 'best' individuals of Pit Bull that could be found .

    Now , the Amstaff stud books were opened as recently as the 70's to allow an infusion of fresh 'pit' blood through to refresh the Amstaff gene pool . Now go back some more to when the Amstaff actually became a "breed" ( to me it is and always will be a type - will say more on that a bit later)
    It was only the early 30's that the Amstaff ( as a breed) was born. Now IMO , 70 odd years ( if we take it from when this particular debate/divide in camps came to an all time high) ,70 odd years does not to me make a seperate 'breed'. And remember,that is without adding that fresh APBT blood was added in the 70's thus making it in truth only going on 45 odd years that the Amstaff gene pool has been closed books.

    IMO the Amstaff will always be an APBT as it has never had any other blood added to the mix. What I do believe more and more now is that there are seperate 'types' of the one gene pool. Even amongst the Amstaff there are definate differing types.
    We have those that breed dogs ( Amstaff) that are everything the Standard says they should be and then some. They are still driven by the love for their humans,they are still loyal and most corageous of heart ,they look powerful and agile, a dog that can and does excel at agility and other sport types.
    And whats more is , they are all of those things .
    And then there are what alot of us refer to as the 'hippo's' . Massive heads,short, ill defined legs that carry a torso that resembles a barrel ,large thickset necks but no length to speak of. Certainly no athlete to look at this is for certain. Lets not even enter the domain of health and defects. And then there are the dogs like this that are also being called True APBT overseas .

    Well gosh I'd like to see these newer types go out and do what a true to type ( old type I guess most would call them now) APBT or a well bred Amstaff could do over the course of a day. But I wont , because most of them would be flat out breathing/moving or dying from breathing/heart/congestion failures after a simple run round an oval .

    Wow,that turned out a bit long winded lol!
    At the end of the day I guess what I'm saying is exactly what MB said ;

    Until I get to do so more fully, consider this, it is known that the Italian farmers who were guardians of this breed prior to a pommy and a few Italians deciding to comercialise them, had kept them very much to themselves for many hundreds of years, yet, we are here told by some unidentified soul what is the 'correct Italian type' after only sixty odd years of breeding, the commercial Neo is better than the real working dogs the Italians kept to themselves for hundreds of years ???
    GageDesign Pet Photography
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  3. #93

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    Interseting post Chop. Thanks good read.
    Dogs make everyday life enjoyable...........

  4. #94
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    Thanks Choppa

    It is the way dogs seem to go once they get to be only pets/ show animals, some breeders do their utmost to be proper custodians of their breed but sadly ..it floats.

    I would like to see some form of compulsory reporting of genetic faults and a record kept, signed by a vet of what all pedigree dogs die from, this would put an and to lies and cover up's that go on now, probably in quite a few breeds, the breeds with more exaggerated traits just fare worse.

    I need to get out my books to get the exact vet terms for the ressessive genes and conditions deliberately kept in Neo lines to get the 'look' claimed as true Italian type, not to mention lack of general health from too much inbreeding, one of our first dogs had the same dog in her five gen pedigree 60 odd times, and comming from no more than 12 to 15 dogs to start the whole breed and those inbred time and again, it is mind blowing to think some are still doing it.

  5. #95
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    MM - I think Sydney Uni is attempting to get a genetic fault database up and going (similar to what they have in the UK) with voluntary reporting by vets

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minibulls mum View Post
    Thanks Choppa

    It is the way dogs seem to go once they get to be only pets/ show animals, some breeders do their utmost to be proper custodians of their breed but sadly ..it floats.

    I would like to see some form of compulsory reporting of genetic faults and a record kept, signed by a vet of what all pedigree dogs die from, this would put an and to lies and cover up's that go on now, probably in quite a few breeds, the breeds with more exaggerated traits just fare worse.

    I need to get out my books to get the exact vet terms for the ressessive genes and conditions deliberately kept in Neo lines to get the 'look' claimed as true Italian type, not to mention lack of general health from too much inbreeding, one of our first dogs had the same dog in her five gen pedigree 60 odd times, and comming from no more than 12 to 15 dogs to start the whole breed and those inbred time and again, it is mind blowing to think some are still doing it.
    This is a great thread and very relevant I would say.
    The thread was not hijacked but you where pulled up for bagging out a specific blood line of Neapolitan Mastiff and actually started turning the whole thread about "NEOS" (as you call them lols) . You where also private messaged by me so dont make out you where not.

    I was born in Italy and grew up with this breed all my life so dont try anymore fabricating and fairy tales, if you dont have the resources or capabilities to get hold of good stock DONT KNOCK IT!

    I personally know of quite a few people who have had a lot issues with your SO CALLED NEOS ! If thats what you can call them lols


    Once again to every one else sorry this was not about Neapolitan Mastiffs and was an educational excellent topic, but when some one blows there own trumpets and actually dont have the decent stock to be calling it they need pulling up !

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson View Post
    This is a great thread and very relevant I would say.
    The thread was not hijacked but you where pulled up for bagging out a specific blood line of Neapolitan Mastiff and actually started turning the whole thread about "NEOS" (as you call them lols) . You where also private messaged by me so dont make out you where not.
    Johnson, please 'quote' for me the post IN THIS THREAD BEFORE you hijacked the thread where MBM was 'pulled up for bagging out....' ( YOUR WORDS )

    ETA: I can find NO MENTION of Neo's or Neopolitan Mastiff's IN THIS THREAD prior to your attack on MBM. The thread only became about the NM after you mentioned it.

    Incidentally, Neo, Neopolitan Mastiff, NM.... whatever. But WTF is 'lols'???

    Yes, I read the 'private' message on MBM's PUBLIC visitor message page. To be honest, if you'd messages me like that about Dobes, I wouldn't have acknowledged you, either.

    Wish you'd just leave it alone and stick with what was a good topic.
    Last edited by Villain & Flirtt; 02-24-2011 at 12:02 PM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecutter View Post
    MM - I think Sydney Uni is attempting to get a genetic fault database up and going (similar to what they have in the UK) with voluntary reporting by vets
    Good going Stonecutter, but too many breeders hide faults because of a fear or backlash from others, we need it to be mandatory as it is in some other countries, this way we would see the real figures on all sorts or genetic faults, might also encourage the genetic testing companies to research even more possible tests, at the moment many conditions are being denied so until they are bought out in the open we will not get anyone to look at developing too many more tests, no company develops a test for a rare condition, they need to know it will be needed and used.

    Another reason that where genetic tests are available they need to be done, should be in fact ,with pup prices being what they are in many breeds, be mandatory.

    All this is needed since we, the great breeders of the year 2011 cannot breed dogs as healthy as the wild New Guinea Singing Dog which lives for up to 20 years and has no known genetic faults 8>)
    Last edited by Minibulls mum; 02-24-2011 at 06:00 PM.

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Villain & Flirtt View Post
    Johnson, please 'quote' for me the post IN THIS THREAD BEFORE you hijacked the thread where MBM was 'pulled up for bagging out....' ( YOUR WORDS )

    ETA: I can find NO MENTION of Neo's or Neopolitan Mastiff's IN THIS THREAD prior to your attack on MBM. The thread only became about the NM after you mentioned it.

    Incidentally, Neo, Neopolitan Mastiff, NM.... whatever. But WTF is 'lols'???

    Yes, I read the 'private' message on MBM's PUBLIC visitor message page. To be honest, if you'd messages me like that about Dobes, I wouldn't have acknowledged you, either.

    Wish you'd just leave it alone and stick with what was a good topic.


    What I find typical and interesting here is that "mini bulls mum" has gone back since it was noted she was talking rubbish about some Italian blood lines and DELETED the picture and post.

    There was also a post from "Rich" making some claims about her own cross breed NM lines .

    Why post things if you dont stand by them and then mysteriously DELETE them.

    You are right though sorry too hijack what is an excellent thread, and other contributors please keep participating , I wont comment again in this thread but if necessary will start a whole new thread on particular peoples breeding practice and claims and may even put up the breed standard for them to read.

  10. #100
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    Johnson

    I don't know who made you a member of the breed or forum police.

    Perhaps you might want to have a read of the forum rules before you start making unbacked accusations.

    http://www.dogforum.com.au/general-d...rum-rules.html

    While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters.
    Personally, I've found Minibullsmum a helpful contributor. If she likes a certain look in a dog - that's a personal preference, not cause for flames from you.

    Note - I'm not a forum moderator and know nothing about Neopolitan Mastiff standards either. And I have been known to make the occasional "rude" post.

    I do know standards vary from country to country so for your post to be relevant, you would have to post the Italian breed standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson View Post
    What I find typical and interesting here is that "mini bulls mum" has gone back since it was noted she was talking rubbish about some Italian blood lines and DELETED the picture and post.

    There was also a post from "Rich" making some claims about her own cross breed NM lines .

    Why post things if you dont stand by them and then mysteriously DELETE them.

    You are right though sorry too hijack what is an excellent thread, and other contributors please keep participating , I wont comment again in this thread but if necessary will start a whole new thread on particular peoples breeding practice and claims and may even put up the breed standard for them to read.

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