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Thread: Poodle Colours??????

  1. #11

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    E-Z COAT COLOR GENETICS FOR THE GREAT DANE BREEDER
    If you go down the page to Harliquens you will read that to breed this colour Dane involves culling certain pups at birth.....................
    Why would you want to do a mating that you know will result in some of the litter being culled @ birth?????????????????
    I like the Harliquen Danes but surely you can just desex & sell the mismarked pups @ pet prices & if your not willing to do this due to cost of desexing the mismarked pups then I think you have no right breeding them.

  2. #12
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazydog View Post
    Thanks alot I have spent hrs on dogzonline reading, lol. I hate this if it dose not fit the standard cull it atitdude. Unless it has health issues that come with a colour why not have dogs of all colours.
    Many breeders do sell white Boxers just for instance without papers,( I mention this breed because I have seen quite a few out here, once bought one myself ) instead of killing them.

    In QLD that is considered unethical because a breeders must register all pups from a litter, those who choose to kill white pups are considerered ethical, by Dogs QLD, ie: there is a rule against selling them cheaply and unpapered, but not against killing them.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minibulls mum View Post
    Many breeders do sell white Boxers just for instance without papers,( I mention this breed because I have seen quite a few out here, once bought one myself ) instead of killing them.

    In QLD that is considered unethical because a breeders must register all pups from a litter, those who choose to kill white pups are considerered ethical, by Dogs QLD, ie: there is a rule against selling them cheaply and unpapered, but not against killing them.
    I hear that line of thinking alot around showie/breeders & agree that if you sell mismarked or coloured dogs on limited papers you do have problems with them then being breed just the pups have no papers. But I think alot are more worried about other breeders finding out that their stud dog or bitch produced a pup they veiw as sudstandard & therefore this mirrors badly on those bloodlines. So for those breeders that have true worries about inexsperainced breeders using colour mutions they have little true understanding of in their breeding programes will be happy to go with my plan of desex & sell with limited or no papers. But those breeders who are so worried about their reputaion & that of their dogs bloodlines with their peers my plan is no hope & they we continue to kill baby puppies.

  4. #14

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    Culling at birth is still done sadly, but not as much as it used to be.
    These days 'culling' tends to mean desexing and removing from a breeding program.

    I do agree that color shouldn't matter in some breeds, but the fact is some colors produce terrible conformation.

    I'll use Harlequin Danes as an example as they have been mentioned. Big cloddy, coarse, droopy looking dogs. They do not have the quality of a Fawn Dane and probably never will because the colors are not interbred.

    Breeds like the poodle where the colors can be bred together could easily produce better quality dogs, but because the breed standard states solid colors only, I have yet to see a good (or even passable) quality parti which is why show people tend to dislike them.

    Some breeds are colored the way they are for a reason.
    Shih Tzus (except for solid colors which are new) must have 4 white legs and a white shawl around the shoulders.
    They have been that way since they were first bred in China. They were the Emperors Royal dogs and the white feet and shawl were considered a mark of royalty and very lucky.

    Others have a more practical reason for their coloring such as hunting breeds colored for camouflage.

  5. #15
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    Certain colours are associated with health problems eg white nosed dogs are more prone to skin cancer, merle to merle matings can result in blindness or deafness because the genes are linked (or the same - don't know yet).

    Some colours are discouraged because the breed standard makers think all the dogs will become that colour if it is allowed to breed eg black and tan SBT. Or like green budgies.

    I think if there is a breed standard and colour is a part of it, then if a "wrong" coloured puppy appears - it should be desexed before being re-homed. But not culled.

    People who ignore the breed standard for colour - what else are they ignoring eg joint problems, sight, hearing, breathing problems? etc.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    Culling at birth is still done sadly, but not as much as it used to be.
    These days 'culling' tends to mean desexing and removing from a breeding program.

    I do agree that color shouldn't matter in some breeds, but the fact is some colors produce terrible conformation.

    I'll use Harlequin Danes as an example as they have been mentioned. Big cloddy, coarse, droopy looking dogs. They do not have the quality of a Fawn Dane and probably never will because the colors are not interbred.

    Breeds like the poodle where the colors can be bred together could easily produce better quality dogs, but because the breed standard states solid colors only, I have yet to see a good (or even passable) quality parti which is why show people tend to dislike them.

    Some breeds are colored the way they are for a reason.
    Shih Tzus (except for solid colors which are new) must have 4 white legs and a white shawl around the shoulders.
    They have been that way since they were first bred in China. They were the Emperors Royal dogs and the white feet and shawl were considered a mark of royalty and very lucky.

    Others have a more practical reason for their coloring such as hunting breeds colored for camouflage.
    I agree that there are very few unusual coloured/marked dogs of good type but no wonder. They have not have the benifit of educated breeders for the last so many ever generations like their reconized coloured/marked peers. They are used in uneducated money making backyard breeders programes 9 times out of ten who care very little to not all about type, health & temperment. If the mismarked/coloured dogs gets enough breeders out there interested in preserving the unusual & breeding with the goal of improved type, temperment & health you will see a marked improvement in the quality of such dogs within a few generations.
    I agree that some colours(white, double dilutes & spashy markings ie Harliquen Dane) do come with health risks & don't reccommend breeding those without alot of knowledge & huge care has to be taken in picking breeding partners & I am not as interested in those myself. It is the normal dog colours that appear
    often but are not reconized I am more concerned with ie parti pooddles,phantom poodles,tri coloured border collies,sable tibetan mastiffs etc. There is no health riskd assocated with any of those colours just someones personal perfrernce when the standard was first written. Even the working dogs that have colours to fit their job rarely do those origanal job anymore & as long as the comman colours are still keep what harm can a mismarked/coloured dog really do?

  7. #17
    Join Date
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    What harm can a missmarked or miss coloured dog do in breeds where the miss colouration cannot be linked to other genetic problems......none.

    Far less in fact than breeding unlimited litters from popular sires who may carry deleterious genes, or breeding from untested stock when test exist for known problems in the breed, or breeding dogs to be ever more exaggerated in form when it is not good for health and they can no longer do what they were intended to do.



    If all breeds were vetted as well for genetic faults and tests were mandatory where faults exist in a breed, which in most breeds they are not, then culling for colour would makes sense if the non desirable colour really did produce pups of inferior quality.



    In QLD it is against Dogs QLD rules to put a good quality pup on limited register, only pups of inferior, pet only quality may be put on limited register.



    Many breeders are putting all but a very few pups from champion and even imported champion dogs on limited register, so, are these pups properly coloured, marked, conformed, or are they too crap like the forbidden coloured dogs are said to be, or are breeders not adhering to their own registry's ethics ?

    And, as Cd said, if only outsiders are breeding the different colours how would you expect them to be very well conformed, when apparenly so many champions are not producing pups good enough to go on main register you cannot expect too much from outsiders.

  8. #18

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    In QLD it is against Dogs QLD rules to put a good quality pup on limited register, only pups of inferior, pet only quality may be put on limited register.
    QLD has some kooky rules. You couldn't possible know if a dog is good quality or not at 8 weeks old when they are registered.
    Some breeders will put 2-3 pups from a litter on main register and the rest on limited and run those 2-3 pups on until they know for sure, but they are nearly always downgraded to limited register once placed in a pet home.
    They could end up being perfectly good dogs that are show quality, but not what the breeder wants and does not want main registered dogs going to strangers.

    The last litter my mum had she only put 1 on main register as there were only 2 bitches and she was keeping 1 of them. One was obvious pet quality at 8 weeks and the other had potential.

    There were 4 boys in that litter and 2 could easily have gone on to show homes but she didn't have show orders so they were placed on limited register.

    Anyway back to color lol
    The Great Dane standard was changed a while back to include mantles. They used to be considered mismarks but a few select people bred them and eventually they were recognised.
    I still am not a fan though... color is what makes some breeds.

    Seeing a fawn Irish Setter or a Brown Great Dane would be a bit too much for me.

  9. #19

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    It's ok to not be a fan & not want to breed or promote them yourself thats what personal opinions & tastes are all about. It the breeders that spread lies about the different colours that fets me going. Just because there are a handful of colour related genes that we should avoid for good sensible health reasons they cann't turn a handful to all that don't fit their breed standard are health risks & this is what I see a lot of old school breeders doing/saying unfortuntly.
    I would hate to see the unusual so over breed there are no good examples of the origanal reconized colours, I just think we could breed both the reconized colours & the unusual mis marked/coloured dogs well if they could be registered under the same assosations.

  10. #20

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    POODLE COAT COLORS: BLUE & BLACK
    Great info on poodle colous & what to put to what to improve on colours etc......
    Sorry link is only to blue/black info page but there is heaps of info on whole site.
    http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/poodle.html
    Last edited by crazydog; 12-30-2010 at 05:44 PM. Reason: 2 add another link.

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