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Thread: Bondi Vet - Anti-pitbull Episode Leaving Me Aghast

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by CairnsVet View Post
    DNA tests for dogs are certainly unreliable, especially wrt to Pit Bull terriers, as these aren't genetically a breed but a type of dog with defined characteristics belonging to a group of similar breeds. Because they are only recently selected from other bull terrier breeds and include other heavier breeds like mastiffs the breed is a potpouri genetically. All a genetic test can tell you is that a dog is not a purebred because its genes all belong to one breed (or maybe two but even that is a stretch).
    Pitbulls definitely have a strong tendancy to "lock" onto their prey: there doesn't need to be some physical mechanism for this term to be appropriate. You might not like the term lockjaw (Lockjaw is a common name for tetanus which certainly does occur in dogs) but the fact remains the combination of their powerful jaws and this aggressive habit make them extremely dangerous if they do attack. Many staffies have similar characteristics and are frequently dog aggressive and are thus popular in dog fighting. Pit bulls are essentially the staffies and crossbreds who have been selected by living through dog fights for hundreds of years.
    Many Pit Bulls have quite nice temperaments, but they do often have behavioral issues and they can be very problematic when this occurs (as can many other breeds bred for fighting or guarding such as Rotties).
    Obviously correct training and socialisation make a big difference to most dogs but the genetic and physical characteristics of a breed should be taken into account when choosing a pet.
    I have to agree with a lot of this post, I can hear the knives being sharpened as I type.

    Why is it important if the dog has a mechanism that locks the jaw, the point is they just don't want to let go, that's the way they've been bred.
    Part of Australias' sordid past that no-one speaks of includes dog fighting where the dogs fought sometimes to the death, I had the misfortune to attend 1 such event and it wasn't long after the jeep bloodline gained a following in this country.
    The two sickening displays I witnessed involved pit bulls of the said bloodlines pitched against a Rottweiler and the other against a staffordshire. The pitbulls won both events and killed the competitors and remained clamped to the dead dogs well after they died and in 1 case it took almost 5 minutes to remove the winning dog.
    The owner of one pit bull had tyre levers (for a car) to pry his dogs off and had to lend the levers to the other owner to remove his dog from the dead dog.

    In my district pit bulls are the the dog of choice for drug dealers and they are trained to be savage, they are deliberately not socialised to enhance their protective qualities.
    I don't trust them because I've seen what they are capable of.
    Responsible dog owners are rare where I come from (and most places I've lived) so I don't think any bozo should be able to buy something that could easily kill a child and just shove it in the back yard.

    Fire away

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Gippsland, Victoria
    Posts
    743

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    BundyBear: Though I need a little time to get my thoughts together in response to your post, there were two things I wanted to get out there straightaway.

    1. Bozos should not be able to buy something that could easily kill a child then dump it in their backyard.

    I agree. But that does not apply only to PitBulls/ Bully breeds, it applies to EVERY breed and many inanimate objects as well.


    2. Remember 'The Little Rascals'? What breed was their dog?

  3. #53
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Victoria
    Posts
    4,241

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    Bundybear, I think V&Fs dogs are capable of killing anything they want.
    My JRT is capable of killing up to a 3 year old if he wanted.
    Education not Legislation

  4. #54

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    Those dogs that latch on and wont let go spend years of their life in training for exactly that. Dogmen have many different excercise developed to strengthen their dogs jaws to that point, an everyday pitbull/amstaff/stafford wont have the same power although they are still very strong. Part of it also comes down to sheer determination

    Re: comment about those pitbulls with kids please go and buy "the lost dogs" by Jim Gorant it is about the 50 odd pitties and staffies rescued from Micheal Vicks dogfighting ring and many of those "savage" dogs (yes including the ones that made it into fights and survived) were saved and many are now therapy dogs even working with children. Most live peacefully with various other pitties and dogs as well as cats and children.

    Pitbulls were called the nanny dog for a reason. They were bred for no human agression and many fighters were also house pets.

    I do agree any old idiot shouldn't be able to take a dog home who can kill a child but please be aware pitbulls are not the only breed who fall into that category all dogs over 10kgs could kill a child including family favourites like labradors just as much as dobes or rotties, pitties etc etc the list is endless.

    ETA that book will also give you an insight to what those dogs have to endure before they even become aggressive and fight another dog most times the dogs know its fight or die.
    Last edited by Keira & Phoenix; 02-28-2011 at 09:04 PM.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Gippsland, Victoria
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    743

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiemyf7 View Post
    Bundybear, I think V&Fs dogs are capable of killing anything they want.
    My JRT is capable of killing up to a 3 year old if he wanted.
    So true, Myf, so true.

    When I owned a Dobe and an Afghan Hound, it always surprised me that folks would cross the street to avoid the Dobe, but encourage their child to come pat the pretty Affie.

    The Affie had the capacity to kill, too.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Cairns, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    25

    Default Dog aggression

    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Those dogs that latch on and wont let go spend years of their life in training for exactly that. Dogmen have many different excercise developed to strengthen their dogs jaws to that point, an everyday pitbull/amstaff/stafford wont have the same power although they are still very strong. Part of it also comes down to sheer determination
    Regardless, that behavior and physique has been selected for hundreds of generations.
    Its true that many Pit Bulls have low human aggression, but as a Vet I am very wary of them as they can turn quite suddenly. High dog aggression/low human aggression is the result of intense selection pressure (kill the dogs which die or lose a fight). This has not necessarily been maintained, and there are MANY fearful and anxious Pit Bulls (and crosses, which adds a wildcard factor) in the community which are physically capable and mentally predisposed to being both animal and human aggressive.
    Other breeds have similar issues, its just a power thing.

    Its like comparing a BB gun to an AK 47.
    Some people think all gun ownership should be allowed
    Others think no gun ownership should be permitted.

    Most people come down in the middle:
    some people use guns responsibly for work or recreation, how can we limit the risk while allowing freedom.

    I'm not saying Pit Bulls should be banned, but I wouldn't recommend them as a Pet, just like I wouldn't suggest having a gun in the house, even though most of the time responsible care will prevent a problem. The most likely victim is a member of your own family.

    I've met lots of nice Pit Bulls but as often as not I feel like its a highly conditional state, and many have growled or had a go at me. Its not just Pit Bulls (Rottweilers and Shar-peis are comparable) but I don't see the point in denying it and saying "its all the training". Actually no, most dogs can be poorly trained and handled (not abused, just neglected, like most house pets) but not end up genuinely human aggresssive with true potential to cause serious injury.

    Add to this PB owners seem more likely to be ignorant about training, socialisation, desexing, keeping dogs on leashes and other simple factors which will reduce the likelihood of trouble.... this only adds to their reputation.

    I've been attacked by a Pit Bill whilst walking my dogs and it was very different to your typical dog attack (eg. from a German Shepherd or Cattle dog: two breeds which are also popular yet frequently aggressive):
    The Pit Bull just trotted up, tail erect, no warning signs (like barking, growling or a stand-off) and attacked unprovoked. Fortunately a security guard was nearby and helped me as the owner was unconcerned.

    This is entirely consistent with the purpose they were bred for.

    Had I been a little old lady or child walking my dog alone this could have been in the papers.
    Last edited by CairnsVet; 03-03-2011 at 10:23 AM.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by CairnsVet View Post
    Regardless, that behavior and physique has been selected for hundreds of generations.
    Its true that many Pit Bulls have low human aggression, but as a Vet I am very wary of them as they can turn quite suddenly. High dog aggression/low human aggression is the result of intense selection pressure (kill the dogs which die or lose a fight). This has not necessarily been maintained, and there are MANY fearful and anxious Pit Bulls (and crosses, which adds a wildcard factor) in the community which are physically capable and mentally predisposed to being both animal and human aggressive.
    Other breeds have similar issues, its just a power thing.

    Its like comparing a BB gun to an AK 47.
    Some people think all gun ownership should be allowed
    Others think no gun ownership should be permitted.

    Most people come down in the middle:
    some people use guns responsibly for work or recreation, how can we limit the risk while allowing freedom.

    I'm not saying Pit Bulls should be banned, but I wouldn't recommend them as a Pet, just like I wouldn't suggest having a gun in the house, even though most of the time responsible care will prevent a problem. The most likely victim is a member of your own family.

    I've met lots of nice Pit Bulls but as often as not I feel like its a highly conditional state, and many have growled or had a go at me. Its not just Pit Bulls (Rottweilers and Shar-peis are comparable) but I don't see the point in denying it and saying "its all the training". Actually no, most dogs can be poorly trained and handled (not abused, just neglected, like most house pets) but not end up genuinely human aggresssive with true potential to cause serious injury.

    Add to this PB owners seem more likely to be ignorant about training, socialisation, desexing, keeping dogs on leashes and other simple factors which will reduce the likelihood of trouble.... this only adds to their reputation.

    I've been attacked by a Pit Bill whilst walking my dogs and it was very different to your typical dog attack (eg. from a German Shepherd or Cattle dog: two breeds which are also popular yet frequently aggressive):
    The Pit Bull just trotted up, tail erect, no warning signs (like barking, growling or a stand-off) and attacked unprovoked. Fortunately a security guard was nearby and helped me as the owner was unconcerned.

    This is entirely consistent with the purpose they were bred for.

    Had I been a little old lady or child walking my dog alone this could have been in the papers.
    So you judge the whole breed because of one incident . ( and I am sorry for your one experience ,it would of been terrifying)also an erect tail would of alerted me to oncoming trouble,its a sign.

    And Pit Bulls can suddenly turn ? That one made me snort...sorry but it did.

    As for not being a pet,take a look through my albumns,they make the best fanily pet ( Sorry guys you all know what I mean)

    And NO dog just turns.There will always be a sign/signs however slight and it will never be for NO reason..



    Last edited by ChoppaChop; 03-03-2011 at 11:38 AM.
    GageDesign Pet Photography
    Site still in construction so will post link when it's finished.

  8. #58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CairnsVet View Post
    Regardless, that behavior and physique has been selected for hundreds of generations.
    Its true that many Pit Bulls have low human aggression, but as a Vet I am very wary of them as they can turn quite suddenly. High dog aggression/low human aggression is the result of intense selection pressure (kill the dogs which die or lose a fight). This has not necessarily been maintained, and there are MANY fearful and anxious Pit Bulls (and crosses, which adds a wildcard factor) in the community which are physically capable and mentally predisposed to being both animal and human aggressive.
    Other breeds have similar issues, its just a power thing.

    Its like comparing a BB gun to an AK 47.
    Some people think all gun ownership should be allowed
    Others think no gun ownership should be permitted.

    Most people come down in the middle:
    some people use guns responsibly for work or recreation, how can we limit the risk while allowing freedom.

    I'm not saying Pit Bulls should be banned, but I wouldn't recommend them as a Pet, just like I wouldn't suggest having a gun in the house, even though most of the time responsible care will prevent a problem. The most likely victim is a member of your own family.

    I've met lots of nice Pit Bulls but as often as not I feel like its a highly conditional state, and many have growled or had a go at me. Its not just Pit Bulls (Rottweilers and Shar-peis are comparable) but I don't see the point in denying it and saying "its all the training". Actually no, most dogs can be poorly trained and handled (not abused, just neglected, like most house pets) but not end up genuinely human aggresssive with true potential to cause serious injury.

    Add to this PB owners seem more likely to be ignorant about training, socialisation, desexing, keeping dogs on leashes and other simple factors which will reduce the likelihood of trouble.... this only adds to their reputation.

    I've been attacked by a Pit Bill whilst walking my dogs and it was very different to your typical dog attack (eg. from a German Shepherd or Cattle dog: two breeds which are also popular yet frequently aggressive):
    The Pit Bull just trotted up, tail erect, no warning signs (like barking, growling or a stand-off) and attacked unprovoked. Fortunately a security guard was nearby and helped me as the owner was unconcerned.

    This is entirely consistent with the purpose they were bred for.

    Had I been a little old lady or child walking my dog alone this could have been in the papers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    So you judge the whole breed because of one incident . ( and I am sorry for your one experience ,it would of been terrifying)also an erect tail would of alerted me to oncoming trouble,its a sign.

    And Pit Bulls can suddenly turn ? That one made me snort...sorry but it did.

    As for not being a pet,take a look through my albumns,they make the best fanily pet ( Sorry guys you all know what I mean)

    And NO dog just turns.There will always be a sign/signs however slight and it will never be for NO reason..



    I agree with Choppa, several things you posted made me "snort" as such. It's all media fed garbage. How many Pit Bulls have you met exactly?

    You only feel like they could turn and snap at any minute because that is what you are programmed to feel. I felt the same, I even refused to go outside with my partner's mate's Pit Stafford cross because I believed the hype.

    Then I learnt differently and I now own a gorgeous female who is sweet natured and beautiful and I will never turn back.

    Do some proper research here are some good websites

    Coming Soon - Future home of something quite cool
    Cover Y'all Productions :: Beyond the Myth
    Untitled Document

    Read The Lost Dogs by Jim Gorant

    Also would like to say I am sorry that you were attacked it must have been horrifying (as is any dog attack) but as Choppa pointed out the fact the dog trotted up with an erect tail would have been enough warning for me. And what do you mean it was like no other dog attack? How was it different?

    Also have to say Judge the Deed and not the Breed.

    Also you say you don't want the breed banned but for them to not be a pet? So what exactly would you have them as exactly?


    HEY CHOPPA - I have tried today and also tried in the past to look at your albums but it comes up with an error???
    Last edited by Keira & Phoenix; 03-03-2011 at 02:04 PM.

  9. #59

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    Error.....will go check it out ....


    OK,should be ok now.
    I had it set wrong
    Last edited by ChoppaChop; 03-03-2011 at 03:15 PM.
    GageDesign Pet Photography
    Site still in construction so will post link when it's finished.

  10. #60

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    Awesome Chop. They work now!! Fantastic pictures. Your dogs are absolutely gorgeous!

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