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Thread: Bondi Vet - Anti-pitbull Episode Leaving Me Aghast

  1. #41


    This is going to be one of those posts where I am very careful of the 'mind over mouth' matter .

    But just firstly , whilst I go make a cuppa and attempt to mull things over and sort my thoughts into words , would you mind commenting further on this statement of yours ;
    ie ; exactly what type of issues are you talking of ? Also,perhaps you could change your wording from 'many' to 'all' -unless of course dog has been raised in a bad enviroment which then leaves the blame squarely where it should be-on the human.

    Many Pit Bulls have quite nice temperaments, but they do often have behavioral issues and they can be very problematic when this occurs (as can many other breeds bred for fighting or guarding such as Rotties).

    Again , a statement of yours ;

    Pitbulls definitely have a strong tendancy to "lock" onto their prey: there doesn't need to be some physical mechanism for this term to be appropriate.

    Well actually , yes .
    There does.
    Otherwise you are just pandering to media hype and giving false,misleading pretense/information.
    This 'lock' you speak of is nothing but sheer will.Something much admired in the breed. You speak of Lock and Lock jaw,neither correct,neither exist when we are talking of this breed.

    You might not like the term lockjaw (Lockjaw is a common name for tetanus which certainly does occur in dogs) but the fact remains the combination of their powerful jaws and this aggressive habit make them extremely dangerous if they do attack.

    Well again , any dog attacking makes it extremely dangerous .
    Last edited by ChoppaChop; 02-21-2011 at 11:43 PM.
    GageDesign Pet Photography
    Site still in construction so will post link when it's finished.

  2. #42


    What do you think of my take on the english staffs etc? I am very interestyed in your opinion.
    I too toke issue with the op's comments.
    Dogs make everyday life enjoyable...........

  3. #43


    Quote Originally Posted by crazydog View Post
    I have too strogly disagree about a lot of staffies having dog aggresion issue & that they are that simalar in temperment to true pitt bulls. I am talking only about English Staffies not Am Staffs here where not known to be so dog aggressive untill recently. I know they come from the origanal fighting dogs just as the pitties do but the difference is the direction the breeders toke with each breed over the last 50 years. Pitt Bull unfortunally countined to fall into the hands of bad dog men & the staffs where being breed for show/pet soley in this same time period so the result was 2 totally different temperemented dogs.
    I am not against Pitt Bulls but they are more a working breed where as Staffs as the family pet type more not saying pits don't make great pets as they can just that the marjority of the breed has been breed with different dog sports in mind more than as a pet or show dog.
    I do realize of late there has been more & more aggressive staffs coming onto the scences but I think that has more to do with their popularity spike & being therefore breed for money not health or type by non health testing over crowed breeding factories & in suburban backyards. Neither are getting the up bringing they need to be socialable dogs.
    Just my opinion & more than happy to hear others.

    Good morning Crazy holey crap,now its lunch time
    I think I know what you are trying to convey but what we have to keep in mind is that all three of the Staffs were once the same dog.In all manner of aspects . In fact,in alot of places where BSL is prevelant the American Staffordshire Terrier,the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Pit Bull Terrier are all still considered one and the same and fall under the umbrella thus making all 3 banned/restricted.

    The three Staffs originated from the same 'type/breed' ( as there is still some dissent amongst the fanciers regarding certain time frames that was the easiest way I could think of putting it) of dog,known as the Bull and Terrier dog. The Amstaff was in fact firstly registered as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier but was soon changed to the American Staffordshire Terrier to avoid confusion with the English dogs as they were still in their smaller,stockier ,original,version. The Amstaff was being more selectively bred now for differing things,one of them being a little more length of leg . You see America could no longer avoid the admiration and popularity of these dogs so had to Register them as something because like England ,Pit Bull Terrier was deemed just not palatable and was said to represent/remind one of the not very nice sport the breed was famous for ( this was after that handful of wise men got together,chose some of the best Pit Bulls from the time,amongst them of course was Colby Primo who was chosen pretty much to represent the Standard of the new breed these gentlemen were creating ,and called them Amstaffs)

    At all times the 'pit bull' was selectively bred for non human aggression.He had a job to do yes,but at the end of the day he was the all round 'family' dog. Aptly earning and deserving the title of the 'nanny dog'.
    Also back then,'dog men' culled very hard in their breeding programs. Man biters just were not tolerated ( although there was 2 dogs that were very celebrated champions and appeared to represent themselves exceedingly well with their off spring as well who were reported to have been 'biters' ) But 99 percent of the time sub standard dogs,this included human aggression, were disposed of therefor continuing a gene pool of 'clean dogs'.

    And then came the fools. Those that bred these dogs for all of the wrong reasons. Human aggression amongst them. Most dogs of today,especially here in Oz , were/are bred for nothing much more than fighting and/or image and for protection ( idiots) . The breeders of today ( and I do not speak of those too few who still breed a 'real dog' etc ) but the fools out to make a dollar and all the rest that goes with it , have not taken care of lines and have certainly not bred for soundness of temp nor type/conformation. They have used whatever is availible , more often then not breeding crosses,not pures. Crossing with the Stafford is nothing new which then of course in turn gives us those Staffords that are nothing like their standard or their true natures when being bred responsibly and correctly.

    Another long winded,rambling post...I'm so sorry

    But I guess the point is one of the main reasons the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is earning a less then rosey image more and more often is because mostly,they are crosses. Majority of the time crosses with another god knows what cross that some dude who "knows his dogs mate" is calling his prized dog a Jeep or Reed/Reid dog (well known names behind them dogs that continued a large line,but unfortunately apart from the minority here very few people had genuine , true ,pure dogs - but somehow everyone had a Jeep/Reid dog lol ) the best in Oz, with unlimited gameness and oodles of aggression putting it over a Stafford bitch that of course must be a Bronco bitch ( and all of that vice versa)

    These 'part Pit Bulls' are then raised in some of the worst situations they can be. Deliberately unsocialised and taught to be untrustful and worse of strangers.Most of these dogs never seeing anything other than the end of their chain. Chucked in a crude 'fighting box' ,these owners usually knowing nothing more about the actual sport then what they have seen in movies or read on the net or heard from this guy they met in a pub etc etc ....You can imagine the rest.
    And then there are the ones who do all of the above and then set out to breed litter after litter selling the pups to start 90 percent of the process in motion all over again. And they dont charge lightly either. Yet another one of the endless stuff ups of BSL was to push alot of this 'underground' ,thus pushing prices even higher.

    At the end of the day, IMO the temps of the 3 are very similar in almost everyway. Except I will concede that over the short time the Amstaffs have been creating their niche , dog aggression continues to lessen when in a responsible,ethical breeding program. The same also with The Staffords.

    One cannot ignore that dog aggression is a trait of all of these dogs and every owner should be aware and proceed accordingly. Socialising dogs from young ages etc etc....

    Om my......I have just looked back up at what I've written and am quite embarrassed I have gone off on such a ramble. I'm not even sure I've answered your question well enough Crazy , so sorry say so if you havn't received what you were after and I shall try to answer again for you and I swear it will be short and sweet ,not long and winding.

    For now,I shall go make a coffee,check on the kidlets arm ( he's in plaster from fingers to upper arm-shall explain in a post in off topic - sleep has not been on the menu the last few days/nights) and come back and see how little of this is actually understandable
    Last edited by ChoppaChop; 02-22-2011 at 12:07 PM.
    GageDesign Pet Photography
    Site still in construction so will post link when it's finished.

  4. #44


    No it dose answer what I was after really. In a nust shell you believe all 3 breeds(Am Staff,Pitt's & Staffies)are very simalar in temperment especally due to the fact most are a mixture of all 3 anyway. And that of couse they did all start off from the same breeds also. Is that right???

    It so sad what has happened to all our bull & mastiff breeds really.
    Dogs make everyday life enjoyable...........

  5. #45


    We were at the Pet Expo in Victoria this past weekend. Both days, manning the breed stall.
    Sadly, on the Saturday, a dog became severely distressed and could not catch his breath (tongue was purple, he was heaving) a person from our stand ran inside to the information booth to ask for a vet, Dr Brown happened to be standing there, he turned to the person as she arrived, and she asked for a vet urgently, a dog was in severe distress. He told her that he "had to go on stage" and turned his back on her.
    Luckily, another vet there saw this and said she would come and see the dog.

    We are all absolutely disgusted by the "wonder vet's" attitude....I thought the oath they took when becoming a vet was to care for all animals...all he did was show how uncaring and hungry for air time he is.

    The dog was raced to a vet where he was PTS to save any further suffering, but this does NOT change the fact that this VET refused to even come and look at the dog, and he never came over after his stage performance either to ask how he was.

    His show is a joke, and he is a heartless, money hungry, fame hungry fool.

  6. #46


    What a sad story & I am afraid alot of these TV vets are not much better either & I have seen simalar stuff related to TV trainers also.
    He is a tool & I said as much to my OH after watching a talk he gave at a dog expo myself.
    Dogs make everyday life enjoyable...........

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Penrith, NSW


    I have owned several Pitbulls and LOVE them. Its not the breed thats the issue its the minority of ******* owners that are the problem.

    It is a true shame when breeds get a bad name due to idiots.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Perth, WA


    Well, either Lisa Chimes said no such thing (pitbulls making good pets {or whatever it was she supposedly said}) or they cut that part out. I'm thinking the latter - makes for better tv. I did not see/hear her say it either.

    I can't believe CB left that poor dog!! How disgusting!

  9. #49
    Join Date
    May 2009


    Don't say that newfiedevotee!
    I love Chris Brown
    Education not Legislation

  10. #50


    Hi Cairns Vet and welcome! Good on you for wading into the fray at it's most controversial.......

    I think that it is a persistant myth that the bully breeds are fundamentally a dangerous breed. Have a look at how they score in the temperament testing if you want to be scientific about it.

    ATTS - American Temperament Test Society, Inc. - ATTS Breed Statistics

    As for 'locking onto prey', all dog breeds have been modified to perform jobs to assist humans and it is a tinkering (for want of a better term) of the domestic dog's prey drive which gives us dogs who herd (the prey drive is controlled to chasing and sometimes nipping), dogs who track, dogs who point (the prey drive is in the pointing), dogs who retrieve (the drive is controlled to ensure the correct handling of the game) or actually bring down the game and in some cases kill or assist humans to kill it (the natural conclusion of prey drive). Bull baiting (in what I understand was an original influence and use of Bully breeds) and in recent times pig hunting, etc. both require a dog with the physical characteristics (flattened face and strength/stamina) and temperament (gameness or persistance in the face of physical discomfort or prolonged effort) suited to the task. Many smaller dogs (terriers) are ferocious in their hunting of rats, rabbits and so on out of burrows, but nobody seems to fear they will suddenly mistake their family for a rodent and hunt them. Regardless of these thoughts, it is human influence and jobs that have produced different breeds. Even smaller breeds can do significant damage if they bite. Any dog of mixed or purebred origin, once it gets to about ten kilos can inflict serious damage on a human being, yet we are not legislating everyone to have tiny dogs.

    Even fighting dogs are having their prey drive manipulated, because in natural circumstances, dogs are social and pack animals and minimise conflict within their social heirachies. Older research on wolf society which favoured a more vicious 'dog eat dog' system was debunked long ago and effective dog society, while it can target weakness such as illness or age by exclusion or attack, is highly effective at keeping a structure with minimal serious fighting, as injury endangers the pack. It is true that wolf packs and other wild dogs have their own territories and don't invite other packs around for tea and biscuits, but they also practice caution and avoidance rather than all-out brawling at first opportunity.

    As pointed out, dog fighting in the older sense, had no room for dogs with human aggression as these dogs were also family pets. Dog fighting today as associated with ignorance, criminal activity and so on does not deal in proper breeding programmes or ethical boundaries. Many of these dogs, far from being valued working animals and family companions, are mistreated, especially if the dog does not perform well in the fighting ring. The fact that the majority of these dogs DON'T make the 'grade' indicates that even with significant environmental pressures, human and dog aggression to the extent where the animal wants to fatally injure other dogs and/or people, argues AGAINST inherant aggression in Bully breeds. Many dogs rescued out of these scenarios do have serious behavioural issues, but most still choose flight and avoidance before aggression and any dog would be traumatised by such treatment to start with. The truly "bad dog" is a rare and almost mythological creature, IMHO. There are a lot of bad dog-human matches, however.

    The domestic dog is not genetically predisposed to human aggression or in most cases, dog aggression. It is a learned behaviour, caused by human beings. The trait may be bred on through ignorance, but it is not a certain trait, as anyone who has observed the differences in a litter of puppies can attest to. There is also the huge influence of the puppy's upbringing.

    Any dog that truly decides to attack is dangerous. The problem with most situations which can look like a dog attack is that emotions run high and stories are confused, as well as the dog's behaviour possibly being misintepreted. Also, I would say the majority of people would not know what to do in the event of a dog attack well enough to do so under stress.

    As for dog bites, these occur for all sorts of reasons. Statistically, males and children are more likely to be bitten. Males because they can tend to engage in rough play with the dog, or resort to physical force or teasing as a prank and children, because they often are unaware of or misread the warning signs dogs give prior to a bite and also because of their smaller stature.

    To give just one more example (aside from the ridiculous crap on Bondi Vet last year), a dog attack in a nearby area was recently reported as being done by a staffy cross. The dog was reported in the local paper, as having attacked it's own female owner in their family home. Someone I know who actually had involvement in the case said that the woman had been minding the dog for her son reluctantly.So, first of all, it wasn't hers. Then, a man recently seeing the woman entered the yard without her knowing. The dog approached the man and the woman, anticipating an imminent attack on the man, grabbed at the dog. The dog (in a classic redirection of aggression from the initial target) bit her. The attack was by no means unprovoked. The breed of the dog is still in question.

    This can and does happen with any breed of dog. I have owned many purebreeds and crosses and when I used to be a vet nurse worked with many others.

    Many dog bites given by smaller dogs go unreported, btw.

    If you want examples of breed mis-identification by those supposedly in the know and given powers to seize dogs, have a look at the many forums and legal processes in this country and particularly in the States, where cross breeds and purebreeds are identified and impounded or seized incorrectly under BSL or it's influence. Rangers and animal control officers quoted as saying that it must be a pitbull, cos only they have a red nose, for example, while conveniently ignoring Vislas, red kelpies, Pharoah Hounds, Chocolate Border Collies and all the other breeds and their potential crosses who clearly have 'red' noses.

    What about the hug amount of suffering inflicted on humans, by humans, when a dog is seized from a loving family? If we follow the States and Canada, it will happen. And these dogs are not given back. They are routinely destroyed. And legislation allows animal control officers the power to identify and seize a dog as a restricted breed on the spot. No chance to prove or argue otherwise.

    And I would be outraged whether this effected Bully breeds or Maltese terriers. Because it is human ignorance and human irrationality that creates and perpetuates BSL to begin with.

    My local paper quoted eye-witnesses to a dog attack last year. "The dog was seen running away (where was the owner?) and was identified as either a Staffordshire terrier or Rottweiler." So as the dog ran from view, bystanders inserted whichever breed seemed their personal scariest, because let's be honest, a Rottweiler and a Staffordshire terrier (English or American) are poles apart in size, colour and appearance.

    Last thought - if the dog on the end of the leash has major issues, chances are the owner is ( or was, in cases of rescue dogs) either well intentioned but ignorant, or a complete tool. The dog is just along for the ride.

    Please reply (Cairns Vet) to all our comments!


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