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Thread: Thoughts from Breeders on Certain Crossbreeds?

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    Bingo!

    Yes, first generation 'hybrids' can be healthier than the purbreds used to make them, but second generation is where you have problems.
    If you have a Poodle with the PRA gene and breed it to a Labrador that doesn't have it then the puppies will NOT have the gene... but they can be carriers for it.
    So if you then breed that puppy to another carrier there is a good chance the puppies from that mating will end up having PRA.
    So the first generation of "Labradoodle" is clean, no problems. But the second generation has big problems.

    Good breeders also do genetic testing on their dogs to try and eliminate any problems the dog may pass on. So problems like PRA with reputable breeders are non-existant.
    Labradoodle breeders associated with the Labradoodle association must have their dogs genetically tested for PRA. They were actually the first set of breeders to require this. Yes, they are still working to get them recognised as a breed, not there yet, my boy is 4th generation. My understanding is that you need evidence of 7 generations that have a set of consistent traits.

    Yes the coat still needs work, but it is improving. Multigens have far fewer hair (shedding) coats than first cross of labrador and poodle. I have been told that first cross, and yes I agree that it is a cross at that stage not a labradoodle, has only 25% chance of having a non/low-shedding coat. This is why so many people who buy from puppy mills and BYB end up disappointed with the coat.

    Do I think the Labradoodle breeders will succeed in registering the breed. I am not sure, the pessimist in me says that all the unethical breeders of first crosses labelled as Labradoodles will cause problems and hinder the process. At the same time I feel that achieving registration might just make it harder for the puppy mills and BYBs to sell first crosses as Labradoodles.

    Check out the ALA website if you want to know more about this "breed in development" Australian Labradoodle Association

  2. #32
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    To make a comment on working dogs. Many top working dogs are purebreds and a have long distinguished pedigrees. My working Border collie has a long pedigree that goes back to some top Scottish Border Collies, he has a much older lineage than my showbred Border Collie.

    Purebred working dogs are selected for very specific attributes that give the best chance of producing the traits that make up a good working dog.

    Most Australian working breeds were originally a result of cross breeding from imported working breeds and the odd Dingo, but many handlers will then try and select and breed top dogs from within the specific breed.

    Some farmers will mix and match breeds to get a purpose bred dog to suit their situations but most working dogs I see remain true to one breed or another because in many situations really there is no need to cross. You find a line that has been purpose bred for cattle or sheep or utility, yard or whatever you need from within specific breeds.

    People will pay big money for purebred working dogs that come from truly excellent lines and most good stockmen know what those lines and pedigrees are.

    With showbred working dogs, I sometimes chuckle at the comment - looks like it could work all day. Looking has nothing to do with anything. Breeding a working dog to work all day is an art in itself with many heritable traits relating to working ability, endurance, stamina, heat tolerance, water tolerance, temperament that need to be considered.

    As to hybrid vigour for the first cross, I would have thought that if both parents have for example hip dysplsia in their makeup, then the pups are at a high risk regardless. So as applies to the purebred dogs, each parent needs to be free of the genetic disease.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3690anmari View Post
    Labradoodle breeders associated with the Labradoodle association must have their dogs genetically tested for PRA. They were actually the first set of breeders to require this. Yes, they are still working to get them recognised as a breed, not there yet, my boy is 4th generation. My understanding is that you need evidence of 7 generations that have a set of consistent traits.

    Yes the coat still needs work, but it is improving. Multigens have far fewer hair (shedding) coats than first cross of labrador and poodle. I have been told that first cross, and yes I agree that it is a cross at that stage not a labradoodle, has only 25% chance of having a non/low-shedding coat. This is why so many people who buy from puppy mills and BYB end up disappointed with the coat.

    Do I think the Labradoodle breeders will succeed in registering the breed. I am not sure, the pessimist in me says that all the unethical breeders of first crosses labelled as Labradoodles will cause problems and hinder the process. At the same time I feel that achieving registration might just make it harder for the puppy mills and BYBs to sell first crosses as Labradoodles.

    Check out the ALA website if you want to know more about this "breed in development" Australian Labradoodle Association
    Wally Conron (the man who first bred the Labradoodle for the Royal Guide Dogs Association in Victoria, Australia) once said:

    "I have opened a Pandora's Box. I'd be the first to come out and admit that. It's a pity, really...we had gone to great lengths to ensure the poodles we used did not have any problems," notes Conron, who feels the same cannot be said of many of today's breeders.

    "I think it is a recipe for disaster because they are breeding with dogs that have hereditary problems".
    "Another concern is that people are being mislead into believing that labradoodles as well as other poodle crosses all have allergy friendly coats and do not shed. This is not the case and their coats and saliva have to be specially tested," Conron says. "At the Royal Guide Dogs,for instance, we had one litter where there were ten puppies and out of those only two were non allergenic.".
    Education not Legislation

  4. #34
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    We had a showdog bred working dog breed... He is hopeless with stock.
    We got a kelpie pup from a farmer and she is great with stock..

    They are both workin breeds but u can so tell the different between showdog and true working dog.

  5. #35
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    You are right to think if you breed two dogs with hip dysplasia you are more likely to get pups with it, but that misses the point of hybrid vigour, it does exist but is more about how vigorously a thing grows and an improved immune system than weather or not it inherits structural or other faults.

    What AMF has quoted from Wally Conron makes sense, if you do not start with the best you can in the parents you will not get good quality pups.

    If we had been more careful in our selection of sires and dams in pure bred lines all along there would not be a lot of the faults known to run in so many breeds we have today, ditto for exaggerated traits like too short a nose or too big a head coupled with narrow hips just to mention a few, generations of breeders are to blame for this, along registering bodies and show judges who will award over typy dogs.

    Crossing might help some breeds but then you no longer have either of the breeds you started out with, maybe the time will come when at least some breeds have to morph into others just to get enough diversity back in then for dogs to continue to exist without an unacceptably high failure rate.



    Or maybe with ever improving DNA testing to weed out more and more bad genes breeds can remain pure, whatever that is, considering most breeds are the result of crossing dogs anyway.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peta23 View Post
    We had a showdog bred working dog breed... He is hopeless with stock.
    We got a kelpie pup from a farmer and she is great with stock..

    They are both workin breeds but u can so tell the different between showdog and true working dog.
    Some Kelpie/BC/AS etc. breeders either breed working or show ring 'style'.
    Education not Legislation

  7. #37
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    To be a true breeder of a working bred dog you have to be actively working your dogs on farm or trialing your dogs in trials hosted by the various working dog associations. You also need to understand the complexities of what makes a good working dog. Renowned Australian stockman Tully Williams wrote a fab book on this subject.

    As to hybrid vigour I am not entirely convinced, most of my dogs have been purebred working dogs and so far have outlived many of my friends crossbreeds. Two of my dogs lived to 17 with very few problems, you couldnt have asked for a more vigourous pair LOL

  8. #38
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    Hmmmm, my opinion on that Kalacreek is different.
    You can own a working breed without them needing to be good herders.
    Like me and Hyacinth for example. I own a Kelpie X and Hyac owns a ACD X and neither of us have absolute desires for them to be workers(well, sorry, I'll speak for myself )
    I would trust a breeder(and still call them 'true') if they didn't work their dogs, I do in fact own a fit, athletic Kelpie that doesn't.

    If that makes sense..
    Education not Legislation

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    To be a true breeder of a working bred dog you have to be actively working your dogs on farm or trialing your dogs in trials hosted by the various working dog associations. You also need to understand the complexities of what makes a good working dog. Renowned Australian stockman Tully Williams wrote a fab book on this subject.

    As to hybrid vigour I am not entirely convinced, most of my dogs have been purebred working dogs and so far have outlived many of my friends crossbreeds. Two of my dogs lived to 17 with very few problems, you couldnt have asked for a more vigourous pair LOL
    Working line dogs cannot be compared to pet only breeds Kalacreek, you are bang on about needing to breed from true working lines to get good working lines, they are also far fitter than the average pet breed, a crippled working line goes nowhere, only the fittest get bred so of course your dogs are showing the benifits of such breeding

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiemyf7 View Post
    Hmmmm, my opinion on that Kalacreek is different.
    You can own a working breed without them needing to be good herders.
    Like me and Hyacinth for example. I own a Kelpie X and Hyac owns a ACD X and neither of us have absolute desires for them to be workers(well, sorry, I'll speak for myself )
    I would trust a breeder(and still call them 'true') if they didn't work their dogs, I do in fact own a fit, athletic Kelpie that doesn't.

    If that makes sense..


    When we were looking for a ACD, we wanted one from a non-working dog background.. So we got Boss from ACD show dog breeder.
    Because it was the only way we would know for sure that Boss wasn't from working dogbackground..

    Now with Skip, we got her from a local farmer. Both of her parents are well known around our area as good working dogs. She is totally what we are after in a working dog.

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