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Thread: Help please!!

  1. #71
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    But a first generation cross does not have the ability to pick and choose either. It can only take genes for both the dam and sire. So if one is small and the other is large. The offspring can't "pick" two large genes.
    I think you're wrong. The evidence is in my own family. Ie one short parent and one tall one, one short child and two tall ones.

    The trouble is - it's not one gene alone that makes tall or short or curly haired or whatever, it's combinations. And they all derive from ancestry. So just because no parent has the quality doesn't mean the child can't have it, with some exceptions like some eye colours.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I think you're wrong. The evidence is in my own family. Ie one short parent and one tall one, one short child and two tall ones.

    The trouble is - it's not one gene alone that makes tall or short or curly haired or whatever, it's combinations. And they all derive from ancestry. So just because no parent has the quality doesn't mean the child can't have it, with some exceptions like some eye colours.
    Out of interest can you expand on the eye colour thing?

    I am interested as my parents have hazel and brown eyes, yet I have blue. When I read your statement above it reads like one of my parents should have blue eyes in order for me to have them.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    Out of interest can you expand on the eye colour thing?

    I am interested as my parents have hazel and brown eyes, yet I have blue. When I read your statement above it reads like one of my parents should have blue eyes in order for me to have them.
    I honestly have trouble believeing all this eye colour stuff. Me and my brothers and sisters not only have different eye colours but different blood types too.
    Rubylisious


  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog_Lover View Post
    I honestly have trouble believeing all this eye colour stuff. Me and my brothers and sisters not only have different eye colours but different blood types too.
    I dont know about the blood type lol

    I do know that blue eyes is actually a mutation or something though so maybe that has something to do with it.

    My sister (who has both the same parents) has brown eyes.

    We also dont look related at all LOL

  5. #75

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    When I was breeding budgies I learnt quite a lot about the gene thing but I don't know it all.
    So here is what I know.

    It take a gene that both side, which is the mother and the father have.
    Though it is not showing in them at all.
    This gene is then called a recessive gene in both partents.
    When you breed the parent birds two with this same gene that you had no idea about comes out.
    But is shown in the offspring this then has become the dominate gene in that particular bird.
    But this gene can come out in any time.
    And yes it all comes right back to way past the Grandparents.

    I hope this has clear a little of this up.
    This is how I know things work in budgies.
    And believe it or not the Budgie has more gene's in it that we as humans have.
    That is the truth.
    Last edited by Rid****; 08-01-2011 at 09:43 AM.

  6. #76
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    I already know about recessive and dominant genes.....

    From the earlier statement I thought there must have been more to it than that (well obviously the is, but you know what I mean)

  7. #77
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    my understanding with certain things like particular blood type and eye colour is that it must be on both sides of the parental ancestry or one parent must have it expressed or something to be passed on to the children.

    Ie my mum has blue eyes, my dad had kind of green eyes. I've got every colour mixed up in my eyes, but they look amber-green-grey and get called hazel - though I've got no idea what hazel really is. And none of my siblings have blue eyes.

    There's also some fun things like some types of baldness that get passed along the mother's side, and some blood problems - some types of haemophillia. And lots of other odd things like that.

    Anyway - it is possible that neither parent has some attribute expressed but the child gets it. From the parent's ancestors.

    Or sometimes because mum wasn't entirely faithful ie the parents aren't who you thought. And pretty sure that's happened in dog breeding too.

  8. #78

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    In my family we have got 6 kids includuing me.
    Only one came out with blonde hair and blue eye and was quite fair in his complection.
    The very oldest brother is in dog terms the runt of the litter he is skinny and has a full head of hair and short in height.
    Brother below him is fair in his complesion eye are not blue but I can't remeber the real colour of them But I am thinking brown, very bad tempered and bald.
    Next the one and only girl. Shortish in height, dark complesion, brown eyes and a bad temper.
    The next is a brother again, dark complection, brown eye and standard height and bald.
    Next is the blonde haired fair skinned one with blue eyes and is also going slowly balding
    Then me the tallest in us kids,dark skinned with greenish colour eyes slowly balding, and I also have a temper which I hate.
    So this is how we as a family differ from one to the other.

  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I think you're wrong. The evidence is in my own family. Ie one short parent and one tall one, one short child and two tall ones.
    Actually, I would argue you are all the same height. How much taller are your siblings? Cavaliers are 12-13" tall and 13-18lbs. Labs are 22–25" and (60-130lbs) I doubt your taller sibling is twice your height and six times your weight. In the litter there will definitely be some dogs that are larger than others, but none will be six times the size of another dog in the litter. Also Cavaliers and labs come from a background of many generations that are all the same size. If you went back 20 generations in your family history on both parents sides there would be individuals both taller and shorter than your siblings. If you went back 20 generations of Cavaliers or Labs no Cavaliers would be larger than any of the labs. This makes the offspring of a Lab and Cavalier are much different than your family.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by RuralPug View Post
    I cannot see why you would think that F1 crosses are a better solution than pure breeds. In your first post you listed the good points and the bad points of each breed in the cross - you appear to assume that all of the puppies will inherit all of the good points of each parent. You assume incorrectly that all bad traits are recessive and require doubling up and all good traits are dominant and require only a single gene to express. You do not take into consideration that genes found only in one of the parent breeds can modify detrimentally the trait from the other parent breed. Why do you assume that all such modifications will be positive? Some will be and some will not be - it is a lottery.

    Have you ever considered the nightmare that results when puppies inherit all of the bad points from both parents? I work in rescue and I have seen them. Who in their right mind would deliberately breed such a nightmare?

    There are nightmares arising from careless breeding within pure breeds also, but there is at least a good chance of a puppy coming from a breeder who screens the sire and dam for health conditions and temperaments and correct type before producing puppies from them.

    With the exception of certain stock dog breeders who cull ruthlessly any offspring that does not meet their requirements, I have yet to meet or hear of an F1 cross breeder in this country who screens each parent for all of the diseases known in each respective breed, tests for temperament and type and gives support and back-up to their puppy buyers. The ethical breeders in their clubs and associations do do all of those things.

    If you want to cross two breeds, not only should you be testing each parent for all of the problems known to appear in its own breed but also for the problems known to appear in the other breed, as they could be masked by rarity in the other breed but still be present. An extremely expensive exercise.

    And it my view it is irresponsible to cross two breeds with severe morphological differences that could cause health issues if they clash. For instance the poor puppies who inherit unmodified the dentition of the labrador with the jaw structure of the cavalier are going to have overcrowded dentition and over or underbites so severe that they will probably need extensive surgery in adulthood in order to be able to eat properly. This is actually an extremely common problem in F1 crosses.
    But because the puppies are cute and the problems do not appear until later life it does not impact on the breeder's pocket so they keep breeding them, which makes those of us who have seen the heartbreak this causes very, very, very angry at careless breeders.
    I never said cross breeds were a better solution than pure breeds.

    I only assume what I think is a safe assumption. It is not all a lottery. Some is genetics and some is statistics and probability. Both parent dogs have great dispositions. So the offspring likely would as well? I think that is reasonable. Labs have short hair. The alleles at the L locus (the fibroblast growth factor-5 gene or FGF5) determine the length of the animal's coat. There are two known alleles that occur at the L locus: L = Short coat l = Long coat. L is dominant to l. So the offspring would likely have shorter hair. For the same reason the the offspring will be solid colored. I went over the size factoring, and if you don't believe me you can look at all the dogs by breeders making this cross currently and you will see evidence to back what I am saying.
    As for health problems, both breeds have them. But what would make it easier to remove those health problems? Breeding with a dog of similar genetic background or one of a different genetic background? The Cavalier was re-created in 1927, at which time 6 foundation dogs became the groundwork from which all purebred Cavaliers today can be traced. This emphasizes how small the gene pool is for the breed. As for Mitral Valve Disease (MVD), I have talked with many breeders and owners of Cavachons (Cavalier / Bishon Frise), and none of them have experienced Mitral valve problems. Actually the health benefits are the number one reason for getting a Cavachon over a Pure Bred Cavalier. Hip, eye, and elbow problems can be in both breeds and that is why someone breeding them should have health testing done before breeding.

    I'm not sure how you call this breed a nightmare. Do you consider Labs or Cavaliers a nightmare? I would never condone breeding a dog that would be have health problems, but I don't see them. You are right that with a pure bred there is "a chance of a puppy coming from a breeder who screens the sire and dam for health conditions and temperaments ." But there is a guarantee that if you get a puppy from a cross breeder that screens their sire and dam for health conditions and temperaments... you will get a puppy who's sire and dam were screened for health conditions and temperaments.

    I have never heard of the overbite/underbite issue, but I would love to read about it if you could give me some material to look at.

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