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Thread: Help please!!

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post
    Males can be health checked prior to mating. Why wouldn't you want to know if your dog was carry an infection anyway?

    You have spoken of how important health is, regardless of breed, and I would have thought that being able to naturally mate and whelp would be a consideration of overall health.


    Humans don't undergo health testing before they mate... should we scrap health testing for dogs and treat them the same? Comparing humans and dogs in these debates is never wise.
    The male would not carry the infection. Yeast infections. Bacterial infections. Do you swab the males parts and test for infection before natural breeding? Also semen can be checked before AI to make sure that it is quality semen.

    I agree that natural whelping might be a consideration of overall health. But I don't see the ability to naturally mate being a health issue. We are talking about two dogs. I'm not suggesting to mate a penguin and a giraffe. These are distant relatives of each other. If it weren't for humans selective breeding of these dogs we would only have one bred. So the fact that one is smaller than other other is not a health concern. The dog and dam involved will not be at any risk of injury and neither will the puppies. So what is the health consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    This is the part of your reply I find most disturbing.

    Temperament is just as important as health, an aggressive bitch should not be being bred from in the first place! As she has a faulty temperament and shouldn't be being bred.
    Temperament during heat towards an actively perusing stud. Can be much different for everyday temperament towards humans and other dogs. Also a younger male with an older bitch can magnify the problem. I agree an overall aggressive bitch should not be bred.

  2. #62
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    The dog and dam involved will not be at any risk of injury and neither will the puppies. So what is the health consideration.
    The puppies will be at risk if they are allowed to be rehomed/sold undesexed - because the new owners will not know that those puppies can only be safely mated and whelped by artificial means - so that generation will be at risk from oversized puppies that cannot be safely born by natural means.

    I imagine if the bitch is aggressive towards the male - it's an unsuitable pairing or the bitch is not suitable temperment wise.

    I think it's fine to use AI to put two similar sized dogs together eg an overseas GR with an Austalian GR would hopefully help increase genetic diversity while maintaining the ability for natural breeding and birthing.

  3. #63

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    A bitch not allowing a dog to mount has nothing to do with the temperament of the bitch.
    Many bitches can have fantastic temperaments but not allow mounting.
    You might be a mild mannered person but what would you do if a huge guy decided to pin your down on the ground and have his way with you? Same principle.

    The issue I see is in the conformation of the puppies.
    What happens when some moron decides to breed a Dachshund with a Labrador thinking it will make these cute little Dachshund looking dogs with Lab temperaments?

    What they might really get is a stocky, lab sized dog with spinal problems.

  4. #64

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    I don't mean to keep this thread going any more than it needs to be, and I think just about all topics have been covered.

    I would just like to make a last note.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    The puppies will be at risk if they are allowed to be rehomed/sold undesexed - because the new owners will not know that those puppies can only be safely mated and whelped by artificial means - so that generation will be at risk from oversized puppies that cannot be safely born by natural means.
    The puppies should not be mated other than by a professional breeder. A responsible pet owner would get their dog desexed. But I guess we can assume someone is going to do what they are not supposed to. That being said, the puppies could be conceived by natural mating. (Even a first generation could be conceived by NM with a box for the male to stand on, but I've heard AI has better litter sizes.) What the Cavador was bred with would be the question. Cavador to Cavador no problems, but they may not look like the parent dogs. Cavador to Cavalier would be fine if the mother was the Cavador. If the mother would was the Cavalier it would likely be ok, but its not ideal. Cavador to Labrador would be fine if the mother was the Labrador, but again I would be a little hesitant if the mother was the Cavador.
    Preparing for the stupidity of dog owners should not be a factor in dog breeding, but tragically it is.

  5. #65
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    Just talking about AI.

    Isn't it quite common for Bulldogs to need AI due to the shape of the body? And if that is the case all those comments about AI should apply to this breed.

    This is just an example and I don't know how true it is. And I dont care either because they are gorgamous and I will have one eventually regardless of how they are conceived.

  6. #66
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    Steve French

    That being said, the puppies could be conceived by natural mating. (Even a first generation could be conceived by NM with a box for the male to stand on, but I've heard AI has better litter sizes.) What the Cavador was bred with would be the question. Cavador to Cavador no problems, but they may not look like the parent dogs. Cavador to Cavalier would be fine if the mother was the Cavador. If the mother would was the Cavalier it would likely be ok, but its not ideal. Cavador to Labrador would be fine if the mother was the Labrador, but again I would be a little hesitant if the mother was the Cavador.
    you are still assuming you can pick and choose which genes are expressed in the puppies. Any puppy could throw back to any grand parent and result in something unpleasant further down the line. So with huge mismatches in size originally brought about by AI or very naughty behaviour by either dog or bitch - they've been known to lie down so a little dog can climb aboard etc - you can't be sure it won't all go horribly wrong for the bitch with this kind of genetic history.

    And we wouldn't need rescues or pounds if we only had responsible breeders. And rescues and pounds wouldn't be full of bitsas ahead of pedigrees if the "designer dog" breeders were doing the right thing. They're not. They could but they don't.

  7. #67

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    I wasn't really thinking, and I misspoke in saying that a F1 to F1 Cavador would be an okay cross. It is possible that the second generation Cavador you be close to the same size as the Labrador. Suppose the Cavador mother weighted 20 Kg and the puppy had the potential of growing to 40 Kg, it might not be a safe birth.
    So in short it would be best if puppies were spayed or neutered before being sold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    you are still assuming you can pick and choose which genes are expressed in the puppies.
    I'm not assuming I can pick and choose. But a first generation cross does not have the ability to pick and choose either. It can only take genes for both the dam and sire. So if one is small and the other is large. The offspring can't "pick" two large genes. A second generation could "pick" two large genes. I understand it is much more complication than one size gene, but most first generation crosses are going to be similar in size. Smaller than a Lab and larger than a Cavalier.

    With the prevalence of the Labrador and Cavalier, I see no reason to start a new breed. First generation crosses seem to be the best solution. Mules have been around for ever and no one has ever complained that they can't have second generation Mules.

  8. #68
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    I cannot see why you would think that F1 crosses are a better solution than pure breeds. In your first post you listed the good points and the bad points of each breed in the cross - you appear to assume that all of the puppies will inherit all of the good points of each parent. You assume incorrectly that all bad traits are recessive and require doubling up and all good traits are dominant and require only a single gene to express. You do not take into consideration that genes found only in one of the parent breeds can modify detrimentally the trait from the other parent breed. Why do you assume that all such modifications will be positive? Some will be and some will not be - it is a lottery.

    Have you ever considered the nightmare that results when puppies inherit all of the bad points from both parents? I work in rescue and I have seen them. Who in their right mind would deliberately breed such a nightmare?

    There are nightmares arising from careless breeding within pure breeds also, but there is at least a good chance of a puppy coming from a breeder who screens the sire and dam for health conditions and temperaments and correct type before producing puppies from them.

    With the exception of certain stock dog breeders who cull ruthlessly any offspring that does not meet their requirements, I have yet to meet or hear of an F1 cross breeder in this country who screens each parent for all of the diseases known in each respective breed, tests for temperament and type and gives support and back-up to their puppy buyers. The ethical breeders in their clubs and associations do do all of those things.

    If you want to cross two breeds, not only should you be testing each parent for all of the problems known to appear in its own breed but also for the problems known to appear in the other breed, as they could be masked by rarity in the other breed but still be present. An extremely expensive exercise.

    And it my view it is irresponsible to cross two breeds with severe morphological differences that could cause health issues if they clash. For instance the poor puppies who inherit unmodified the dentition of the labrador with the jaw structure of the cavalier are going to have overcrowded dentition and over or underbites so severe that they will probably need extensive surgery in adulthood in order to be able to eat properly. This is actually an extremely common problem in F1 crosses.
    But because the puppies are cute and the problems do not appear until later life it does not impact on the breeder's pocket so they keep breeding them, which makes those of us who have seen the heartbreak this causes very, very, very angry at careless breeders.

  9. #69
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    If you want to cross two breeds, not only should you be testing each parent for all of the problems known to appear in its own breed but also for the problems known to appear in the other breed, as they could be masked by rarity in the other breed but still be present. An extremely expensive exercise.

    This is no longer correct RP while it is true that most breeders registered or cross breeding BYB do not do a full panel of DNA tests, it is not expensive, you can test for over 40 of the 500 known genetic conditions for under $200.
    Some hither to unknown conditions (for the breed) have already been found in some pure breeds by a full panel of tests, some breeders actually refuse to do it and will only give permission for the breed specific tests.....go figure that one out.

    And there are cross breeders who do test, I am both a registered breeder of pure bred dogs and I have crosses all tested and DNA profiled as well, there are, I notice also tests for some oodles, now this must mean that some breeders of oodles are testing.

    I do not like nor aprove of careless breeding but a bit of paper and being in a far less than perfect 'club' does not automatically confer honour on any breeder, nor does a lack of those bits of paper automatically mean a lack of care, knowledge, or real ethics.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFrench View Post
    I don't mean to keep this thread going any more than it needs to be, and I think just about all topics have been covered.

    I would just like to make a last note.

    The puppies should not be mated other than by a professional breeder. A responsible pet owner would get their dog desexed. But I guess we can assume someone is going to do what they are not supposed to. That being said, the puppies could be conceived by natural mating. (Even a first generation could be conceived by NM with a box for the male to stand on, but I've heard AI has better litter sizes.) What the Cavador was bred with would be the question. Cavador to Cavador no problems, but they may not look like the parent dogs. Cavador to Cavalier would be fine if the mother was the Cavador. If the mother would was the Cavalier it would likely be ok, but its not ideal. Cavador to Labrador would be fine if the mother was the Labrador, but again I would be a little hesitant if the mother was the Cavador.
    Preparing for the stupidity of dog owners should not be a factor in dog breeding, but tragically it is.
    What is a 'professional' breeder?

    Interestingly, in a recent mag I picked up, which happens to be from the UK and is something that I am 100% sure would appeal to those who hold concerns about inbreeding in the pedigree dog, it lists the issues that affect many breeds and one of the breeds was something along the lines of a "cavador". Apparently the cross has bad genetic issues already it seems.

    At first I was surprised it was listed as it seemed to be the only cross listed (althogh I didn't look at them all that closely) and then I was even more surprised that it already has genetic issues.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

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