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Thread: Help please!!

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavalierqld View Post
    Thank you Anne for the quote tip, I will have to pay more attention when I do it...

    I'm sorry if you feel I am dragging down registered breeders, but I have always said there are a lot of great registered breeders in all my posts I think.
    I am a registered breeder and have been for 27 years, though choose to have very few litters and choose not to participate in shows for my own reasons. My gripe is with breeders, registered or not who have another agenda besides the ultimate welfare of the dogs in their care. I feel there is a place for the RESPONSIBLE breeding of crossbred dogs, although I dont think many of the "designer" breeds around now have been bred responsibly, there coats are unmanagable but many are great, and many owners of mixes would agree.
    I know we have differing opinions here anne, but my anger is just at those who use animals as a commodity or for money or are mistreated and abused in general, registered or not.
    Actually we don't have 'very' differing opinions at all on this. You simply assume I do.

    Your posting style is, as I have stated, passive aggressive. You will continually come to blows with people becuase of this. You will also continually come to blows by your constant need need to bring registered breeders into these types of discussions. We were not talking registered breeders, we were talking cross bred dogs.

    Yes, there are crap registered breeders. There are idiot resgistered breeders. There are selfish registered breeders. There are puppy farm registered breeders. There are registered breeders breeding purely for profit.

    However, logically, which is how I view life in general, you have a higher chance of getting a dog that you KNOW the genetic health of when compared to a cross bred dog.
    Last edited by Anne; 07-20-2011 at 03:14 PM.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFrench View Post
    Sorry if I caused a battle here. Not my intention.

    My only problem with this is that I feel like it is a generalization, and generalizations are dangerous. If a responsible breeder takes on the goal of creating healthy pets that meet a certain set of requirements (In this case, I would guess it is would be to create a small "Lab-Like" dog) and executes it in the proper way... What is wrong with that? Multiple generation health checks would be necessary, etc... everything that would go into breeding a registered breed and then some.

    What I think you pointed out is that a buyer of this puppy would have to be very knowledgeable, likely more knowledgeable than any buyer is. The fact that there is no third party involved other than the owner and the breeder is the problem.

    Again I think cross breeds can be great dogs and can be breed ethically, but it is very difficult.
    I agree with your post. It is done. You will note in my initial post I mentioned the LAA. I believe that there are many people who belong to this group who ARE doing health checks and who do understand the genetics and who are crossbreeding with knowledge.

    As I pointed out above though, statistically speaking/realistically speaking/logically speaking, the chances of a cross bred breeder even knowing the genetic health of the dogs they are breeding is far, far lower than a purebred dog breeder. There are no checks, no code to follow, no peers to listen to and most importantly NO RECORDS KEPT of the off spring unless they belong to something like the LAA.

    Also, what does a cross bred breeder breed for? Is it to supply puppies to happy homes? make money? Because they enjoy breeding? Love the miracle of life?

    A registered breeder may be also asked the same thing, but on top of this, many of them will have the intention of breeding a dog that is the pinnacle of that breed. They have something to strive for when it comes to trying to make the resultant offspring a healthy specimen.
    Last edited by Anne; 07-20-2011 at 03:24 PM.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post
    Also, what does a cross bred breeder breed for? Is it to supply puppies to happy homes? make money? Because they enjoy breeding? Love the miracle of life?
    Why do we have the Golden Retrievers and Labrador Retrievers, and not the Sand Coloured Bloodhounds, Irish Water Spaniels, Tweed-Water Spaniels, Setter Irlandais, and St John's Water Dogs?

    Because a breed with a certain set of traits is not currently available, and a cross bred is the only way to get these traits. Unless you have a Wolf you have a cross breed with standards. My only hope is that people will put there effort into breeding healthy dogs and don't get caught up in how the dog follows a set of guidelines.

  4. #54
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    SteveFrench

    I don't have a wolf, and I don't have dog bred to standard either. I've got a pound puppy bitsa.

    So you can hope all you like but loads of people who are letting their dogs mate and have puppies are putting no thought into it at all. The ones that deliberately choose to cross breed - are not - in the majority - thinking about creating a better healthier dog. I know one BYB who did it because she wanted her daughter to see what happens when a dog has puppies. Most of the ones that come on here asking for info - want to make money and say so. But if they did it properly like getting DNA tests and choosing genetically compatible parent dogs - would not make any money at all - so you can bet they're not bothering with all that.

    And saying "most" is not the same as saying "all". I just haven't encountered a single breeder that can say they're doing the health testing before letting two dogs get together and make puppies. One even says on their website that to get cavadors - they use artificial insemination. Is that good for the health of the dog breed - puppies that can only be safely conceived by AI and some that can only be born safely by C-section? I don't think so.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    SteveFrench

    I don't have a wolf, and I don't have dog bred to standard either. I've got a pound puppy bitsa.

    So you can hope all you like but loads of people who are letting their dogs mate and have puppies are putting no thought into it at all. The ones that deliberately choose to cross breed - are not - in the majority - thinking about creating a better healthier dog. I know one BYB who did it because she wanted her daughter to see what happens when a dog has puppies. Most of the ones that come on here asking for info - want to make money and say so. But if they did it properly like getting DNA tests and choosing genetically compatible parent dogs - would not make any money at all - so you can bet they're not bothering with all that.

    And saying "most" is not the same as saying "all". I just haven't encountered a single breeder that can say they're doing the health testing before letting two dogs get together and make puppies. One even says on their website that to get cavadors - they use artificial insemination. Is that good for the health of the dog breed - puppies that can only be safely conceived by AI and some that can only be born safely by C-section? I don't think so.
    What is wrong with artificial insemination? A lot of high end breeders only breed through artificial insemination, because it is safer for the dogs involved. If I had a $30,000 dam I wouldn't be willing to risk having her get a infection rendering her useless for breeding, because of a conflict with the conception. Also females can sometimes be aggressive and I wouldn't risk injury to an expensive stud if there is a chance he might be hurt.

    Also humans have be being conceived by artificial insemination for years. Have you ever heard of a sperm bank? So why not for dogs?

    I have never heard of Cavador puppies needing a C-section. This would be the case if the stud was much larger than the dam. But all Cavadors should and usually are conceived by a Labrador dam. Making then least likely to need a c-section of any breed.

    I still have not seen any reason why this would be unhealthy for the puppy or dogs involved.

    I understand byb's are not going to go about this in the right way. But byb's of any other breed are not doing the right thing either. I'm only defending the breeder that wants to breed a cross, and is willing to put in the time, effort, and money to do it the right way.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFrench View Post
    What is wrong with artificial insemination? A lot of high end breeders only breed through artificial insemination, because it is safer for the dogs involved. If I had a $30,000 dam I wouldn't be willing to risk having her get a infection rendering her useless for breeding, because of a conflict with the conception. Also females can sometimes be aggressive and I wouldn't risk injury to an expensive stud if there is a chance he might be hurt.
    Males can be health checked prior to mating. Why wouldn't you want to know if your dog was carry an infection anyway?

    You have spoken of how important health is, regardless of breed, and I would have thought that being able to naturally mate and whelp would be a consideration of overall health.

    Also humans have be being conceived by artificial insemination for years. Have you ever heard of a sperm bank? So why not for dogs?
    Humans don't undergo health testing before they mate... should we scrap health testing for dogs and treat them the same? Comparing humans and dogs in these debates is never wise.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne View Post

    Humans don't undergo health testing before they mate... should we scrap health testing for dogs and treat them the same? Comparing humans and dogs in these debates is never wise.
    Mind you I know a few people that should of been personality tested before they had children.
    Rubylisious


  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog_Lover View Post
    Mind you I know a few people that should of been personality tested before they had children.
    Love it and I agree!
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFrench View Post
    Also females can sometimes be aggressive and I wouldn't risk injury to an expensive stud if there is a chance he might be hurt.
    This is the part of your reply I find most disturbing.

    Temperament is just as important as health, an aggressive bitch should not be being bred from in the first place! As she has a faulty temperament and shouldn't be being bred.

  10. #60
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