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Thread: Breeders Who Don't Show?

  1. #31

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    No the hybrid vigor thing wasn't at you, it just popped into my head

    The testing for hips and PRA is VERY relevant! Would you want your little mutt to go blind by the age of 5? That's why the tests are there, some diseases or problems do not show up until the dog is older and had already been bred from.
    It's not just mixed breeds that there is a problem with, it's purebreds as well. Some breeders can get away with breeding without testing particular dogs because they are cleared by parentage.
    For example my poodle Brody's parents were both tested A for PRA, which means they do not have the problem, never will get the problem and do not carry the problem.
    My female Prada is the same, both her parents are A's.
    If I bred my 2 together the puppies are guaranteed to be A's by parentage.

    Anyway I think I have gotten side tracked.

    Yes the testing is available, but as I said I don't know anyone that breeds mixes who actually does it. If there are some out there kudos to them, but they are rare.

    The $1,000 comment was because the 'breeder' would have to PAY for the tests to be done therefor upping the price of a puppy. Tests don't come cheap and if people are breeding for money they aren't going to be doing them

    I hope this doesn't sound like I'm arguing, I'm not, promise

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    No the hybrid vigor thing wasn't at you, it just popped into my head

    The testing for hips and PRA is VERY relevant! Would you want your little mutt to go blind by the age of 5? That's why the tests are there, some diseases or problems do not show up until the dog is older and had already been bred from.
    I think you misunderstood. I wasn't saying that the testing wasn't relevant. I was saying that the question regarding how many breeders I know who test for these things is irrelevant.

    Yes the testing is available, but as I said I don't know anyone that breeds mixes who actually does it. If there are some out there kudos to them, but they are rare.
    That's actually what my first point was - just because you or I don't know anyone who breeds mixes who does this does not mean that they don't exist or that it's so totally inconceivable that there would be people breeding mixed breeds who do the tests. In my original post I said that the breeders of mixed breeds whom I would consider to be responsible are those who DO do all of the appropriate tests etc - I was not saying that going out and breeding a couple of mutts, then selling them in the paper is ok.

    The $1,000 comment was because the 'breeder' would have to PAY for the tests to be done therefor upping the price of a puppy. Tests don't come cheap and if people are breeding for money they aren't going to be doing them
    I don't think we should assume anyone's reason for breeding purebred or mixed bred dogs. As long as they do the health and temperament tests, have a waiting list, make sure the puppies are in good hands, take responsibility for the puppies etc etc., how much they choose to charge or for what reasons is none of anyone else's business imo.


    I hope this doesn't sound like I'm arguing, I'm not, promise
    Same here I think we misunderstood each other a bit. I'm not condoning random breeding of mutts with no health testing whatsoever. But just because we may not know any breeders of mixed breeds who are responsible does not mean that it's impossible for breeders of mixed breeds to be responsible.

  3. #33
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    Hmmmm, I would have to disagree with you Liza. ATM I have some 20 odd dogs in care waiting for new homes. Of these there is one Stafford (pure) and 1 x X pei (and only because I have had her litter mate in care previously). I am now knocking back pure's because I have no room, and the same goes for SPR SA & QLD. Not a hope in hell can we take the X's, but we are still being asked to as the pounds generally don't want to take the risk rehoming these dominant breed dogs. These dogs are simply being given the green dream because we are too full with pure pei.

    Where are the people who bred them? I have NEVER heard of any of them coming forward to claim the pups they have bred and truly I hear from different pounds on most days of the week. I have heard however, of pei x lab's being sold for $750 each this is more often than not a bad combination temperment wise yet they seem to be popping up all over Gumtree and the trading post. Sadly, I have to say that given my experience with many reg pei breeders and their lack of commitment for the life of those they breed, to even imagine that the X pei breeders are doing the right thing by getting the necessary tests done, or following through on the lives of the dogs they have bred is just a pipe dream. I wish I were wrong, but a vast experience has proven otherwise to me.

    Back to the original topic for a moment, I should have mentioned my Noah as an example. One of a litter of 5. We are pretty sure this litter was the product of a mother and son mating, an accident from a reg breeder who shows. The pups all had health issues and they attemped to sell them off cheap. But these health issues were obvious and when they couldn't sell them, these poor dear little pups were taken around to various parks in Sydney and dumped at between 4 & 6 weeks of age! Noah has 5 -10% vision as a result of such horrific entropion from the moment he was born. Zebbie a broken tail. Molly came so very close to dying from an elongated cleft palate and Jake has a heart murmur. This registered breeder is still breeding and still showing their dogs, meanwhile $1000's and $1000's have been spent on this particular litter to try to give the dogs they bred better lives.

    I guess the point I have tried to make in my two posts is that of all the reg breeders I have dealt with over my time in rescue, only one (again, I am referring to Victoria only) who in fact doesn't show their dogs, would I ever feel comfortable recommending to others, and they are the only one I would ever consider purchasing a pup from as I could and would trust what they have to tell me and the ongoing support I know I would receive.

    Please note that I hold no malace toward X breed dogs in any way. It is the people who breed them on purpose who I would happliy drag along to the shelters with me. Let those people hear the cries of those poor dogs who are to receive the green dream, let those people awake at night after horrific nightmares, let those people spend $2500 on a dog they will be able to rehome for just $500. Because that is what I and all the other rescue workers out there live with and that is why I will never be able to condone those who breed X breed dogs on purpose.

    Thank Dog there are those people out there who love their "mutts". A dog is a dog is a dog except for when it comes to the pound, and death row. At least a pure has some chance of being claimed by a rescue group, the mixed breeds have little chance of getting that second chance.
    SPR fosters:Rowland, Matrix, Mia, Arizona, Romeo, Wrinkles, George, Molly, Su Lin, Ellie, Charlie, Charlotte, Lulu, Montana http://www.sharpeirescue.com.au

  4. #34

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    Please note that I hold no malace toward X breed dogs in any way. It is the people who breed them on purpose who I would happliy drag along to the shelters with me. Let those people hear the cries of those poor dogs who are to receive the green dream, let those people awake at night after horrific nightmares, let those people spend $2500 on a dog they will be able to rehome for just $500. Because that is what I and all the other rescue workers out there live with and that is why I will never be able to condone those who breed X breed dogs on purpose.

    Thank Dog there are those people out there who love their "mutts". A dog is a dog is a dog except for when it comes to the pound, and death row. At least a pure has some chance of being claimed by a rescue group, the mixed breeds have little chance of getting that second chance.
    I agree with this completely.

    You just said it a lot better than me

    And back to the why people breed mixes, yes, there are many, many reasons for people to want mixed dogs, money isn't the only one.
    Some people like a particular mix or want a puppy from their current dog, I have even heard of people saying that their dog 'deserves' to be a mother ( ), but you would be surprised at the amount of people (general public and dog owners) who don't even know health tests exist.

    A friend of mine has a Husky and they were thinking of breeding her, she really is a good example of the breed (even though they didn't know that). I asked them what her hip score was, they just looked at me with a stupid expression on their face.

  5. #35

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    Shar Pei, I don't really see where we're disagreeing. I, too, think that breeders who don't take responsibility for their pups are irresponsible. I, too, think that breeders who advertise on Gumtree or Tradingpost or the newspaper shouldn't be breeding. And for all the crosses you get in your rescue, there are other crosses who are in good homes who may have come from breeders who actually health test and care about what happens with their pups. And even if the majority don't, this does not mean that someone couldn't and putting them into the same pile just makes no sense to me when they are clearly not the same types of breeders. It's horrible that you have so many dogs to find homes for, but it reflects badly on breeders whom we both consider irresponsible, not the types of people I mentioned in my original post whose puppies aren't ending up in rescues because they have good homes. Seeing how many pure and cross bred dogs end up with you just shows that there are so many irresponsible breeders period, whether they breed purebreds or not. Purebred dogs who end up in pounds are also likely to be from irresponsible breeders, just like the mixes who end up in pounds, but this does not mean that any and all breeders are bad or irresponsible. By counting how many dogs we have in shelters, on the streets, etc., we're counting the dogs bred irresponsibly (maybe not all of them come from bad breeders, weird situations and horrible accidents etc happen, but a lot of them or maybe even the majority may be, you'd know the statistics better than me I'm sure), not those purebred and crossbred dogs who are in good homes whom the pounds etc thankfully don't have to see.
    Last edited by Liza; 03-22-2010 at 02:36 AM.

  6. #36

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    The way I see it. And I know this isn't always the case, but a lot of mixed breeds dogs end up in shelters because some people can't afford them anymore.
    They see this "free" dog or $50 mutt in the paper that's just soooo cute, buy it and then don't realize the cost of keeping a dog. Even people who are breeding relatively responsibly don't charge much (pet stores excluded)

    Other reasons include families separating, not good with children, aggressive, shedding, allergies, behavioral problems, etc etc etc. It's just I have seen a lot of dogs abandoned due to financial reasons.

    I know I keep going on about price but I think the high cost of a purebred from a good breeder helps weed out the people impulse buying a cute little puppy.
    If you are willing to spend so much money on a dog you aren't going to just dump it in a shelter.

    I do agree with you for the most part Liza, but there are just some things we will have to agree to disagree on. It's an opinion thing, not set in stone

    On a side note, I thought I was the only one crazy enough to be awake at this hour

  7. #37
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    Look, one of the problems I've encountered over time is breeders with imported stock from overseas. Males (and males born from bitches) who are imported really should participate in a certain scheme. There have been several who are generally 'reknown' as being 'respected/reputable' I've asked, who cannot supply me with proof of that testing. Hmmm.

  8. #38
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    I cannot talk of other breeders I can only talk of myself.

    I have tried extremely hard with this litter. I have screened, rejected and grilled prospective buyers to the point I'm amazed that they have wanted a puppy.

    I am willing to take back ANY dog of mine no matter what it's age for WHATEVER reason. No questions asked. It is plainly stated in my puppy package.

    I also go back to the health testing of ever single dog in a litter. The culling that would need to be done and the price that would need to be asked for a puppy if people really want guarantees to the health of the dog they have purchased. Then and only then we might get near perfect dogs.

    We all have a love of certain breeds and some of of have a love for the mutt. That's fine. But really until you've tried it yourself you'll never see how hard it really is.

    Also I will say regardless of whether people like it or not and that is you cannot compare breeding a purebred line to breeding mutts. What do you stack a mutt up against?

    So I will go back to the original question and say I believe you need to attend at least your breed speciality shows otherwise you will not have an eye for your breed. You will not know what you should keep, cull or sell as a pet.

    Yes you can keep breeding the two you have, but IMO you will not know what you are looking at when it comes to keeping a puppy from that litter if you are not out seeing how they develop. That is why I had two more experienced whippet breeders than I cast their eye over the litter. And I am still not not sure whether the two that I have kept will remain with me or go to pet homes.

    Some Reg. Breeders are disgusting, some people who don't show but breed are really nice people but aren't breeding quality stock to the standard, this doesn't effect pet buyers but it may in time alter one of your beloved breeds.

    Horrible people are in all walks of life.

    I will say this don't ever think it's as easy as putting two dogs together, even of the best type and temp an bingo it all comes together.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mouseandchicken View Post

    Some Reg. Breeders are disgusting, some people who don't show but breed are really nice people but aren't breeding quality stock to the standard, this doesn't effect pet buyers but it may in time alter one of your beloved breeds.

    Horrible people are in all walks of life.

    I will say this don't ever think it's as easy as putting two dogs together, even of the best type and temp an bingo it all comes together.
    Hi MAC

    There ARE reg. breeders out there who do not show "regularly", but have their breeding stock DNA tested and are still producing puppies within the standards (at least in the SBT world). They very much believe in sticking to the standard and having healthy dogs/bitches, but for some reason just do not show.

    There are also reg. breeders who show and STILL breed from dogs/bitches that are sh!t and/or carriers of L2-HGA (in the SBT world). There is NO excuse for using a dog/bitch that is a carrier/affected with L2-HGA...we have beaut DNA testing now. Any responsible reputable breeder would NEVER use carriers of this disease in their breeding program.

    Look...I wouldn't want to use a dog/bitch unless it had been proven to be of good health, temperament and conformation, but that is just me.

    We have decided we do not want to have show dogs anymore. We would much rather spend our money and time on rescuing dogs in need.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by mouseandchicken View Post

    Some Reg. Breeders are disgusting, some people who don't show but breed are really nice people but aren't breeding quality stock to the standard, this doesn't effect pet buyers but it may in time alter one of your beloved breeds.

    Horrible people are in all walks of life.

    I fully agree with your words MAC...

    Just take a look at the SBT.... there are so many that are way out of the "standard" that they are looking way too much like an Amstaff or pitbull. IMO that is doing damage to my beloved breed & it's reputation when it comes to identification purposes.

    It upsets me a lot to see what some breeders are doing to the SBT in regards to breeding from "over sized" or Blue SBT's ( in which i'm yet to see a Blue that actually is with in the "Standard" & looks like a SBT, most don't though) It would'nt bother me 1 bit if the Blue colour was deleted from the SBT Standard, I for one certainly would'nt start or sign a petition to have the blue reinstated in the SBT "Standard".

    I feel extra proud when people on the street comment about Floyd's height/ size etc.. people often say to me "how nice it is too see a traditional Stafford / Staffy being short & stocky as they should be".

    I know when it comes to me looking for future registered reputable SBT breeder's that i will be hunting high & low until i find a breeder that has "with in standard" size breeding stock / lines & that are health test & clear of any genetic health issues & have good temperament etc. I don't want a puppy that comes from over sized Sire or Dam / breeding lines or unhealthy lines.
    Last edited by Aussie Floyd; 03-22-2010 at 08:26 AM.

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