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Thread: Breeders Who Don't Show?

  1. #21

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    It's not really black and white.
    There aren't just show breeders and non show breeders.
    There are show breeders, hobby breeders, backyard breeders and *shudders* puppy mills.

    Show breeding is both good and bad.
    The good side is that it isn't just you thinking your dog is the bees knees and like MAC said, being kennel blind... you are putting your dog up for critique for ALL to see and be judged. If your dog is no good it won't win, no matter how "cute" you think it is.

    Now here's the thing, my new puppy is out of 2 untitled dogs.
    His father was still being shown at the time and a relatively young dog, he has now been titled.
    His mother was not shown at all, she is a beautiful dog, but just did not have enough coat to be considered show worthy (she's a powderpuff)

    The breeder I went through has been breeding Cresteds for many, many years and she has proven time and again she isn't kennel blind by producing BIS winning dogs so that didn't bother me one little bit.

    Now you might be thinking, why breed from a dog with not enough coat? Well, that's the confusing thing with Chinese Cresteds... sometimes you want a lot of coat, sometimes you don't

    Show breeders screen new homes and make sure their pups are going to someone responsible. Usually a spay/neuter contract will be in place to prevent people from breeding from their lines.

    The bad side is that sometimes people care a little too much about winning and not enough about health.

    Now... Hobby breeders, to me these are the people who do not show but still follow the breed standard and do health testing. They can often produce some beautiful dogs, but aren't members of the ANKC so any dogs they breed can't be shown... nothing wrong with that at all for the large population of people who just want a pet but there is no way you can change your mind about showing.
    They health test just like show breeders, but (again as MAC said) they can be kennel blind. Even if you follow the breed standard sometimes things can get lost in translation and they just don't see it.
    Hobby breeders are usually pretty good about screening new homes and want to make sure their pups have a healthy, happy life.

    Backyard breeders to be honest I am not a fan of at all. They don't care for breed standards (often breeding mutts and designer dogs) and they don't do health testing and they don't care about where the dogs are homed (usually)
    Backyard breeders will often dump left over puppies at pet stores when they can't sell them.

    Puppy mills, well I think we can all agree on that one.

    That's my opinion, take it or leave it

  2. #22
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    They breed from successful dogs in the obedience ring. Like a farmer would with his working dogs. And this is fine provided they are not bred on from extensively.

    Others do both confirmation and obedience successfully.

    I think dogs that work stock are a different kettle of fish.

    But a good example of the breed can make a successful obedience dog.

  3. #23
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    Thanks to all so far for their input. It has been most helpful in allowing me to consider different sides and aspects.

  4. #24

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    Sorry for my novel, I didn't think I typed that much until I hit "Reply"

  5. #25
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    Nah don't be sorry Crested. I could give "Gone With the Wind" a run for it's money!

    The more thorough you explained your opinions, the more clearly I understood.

  6. #26
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    And now from the rescue perspective......

    There are MANY reg pei breeders both who show and who do not, who couldn't care less about their dogs that end up in the pound, which I find discusting and irresponsible. I even had one reg breeder tell me that the shelter who currently had her dogs wanted to perform necessary vet work on one of the dogs before releasing them back into her care. She declined saying that if they needed vet work SPR Inc would have this done......obviously at MY cost, not hers lol....(BTW Both of those dogs died of cancer within 6 months of being accepted into care - more fool me)

    I also know some reg breeders (again some of whom are very active on the show front) who keep breeding unacceptable health lines, and I know this because I am the one dealing with the distraught parents of a dog that has died at an age which is half of what is the expected. There is one reg breeder in particular I am thinking of here whose "mess" I clean up on average 4-5 times per year, surely not a co-incidence, given its is always due to the same reason? This breeder is BIG into the show scene!

    Then there is the breeder (or two) whom I have caught on numerous occassions who issue false documents. Lies about dates/ sires/dams all of which I CAN prove! Also reasonably active in the show scene.

    BUT there is ONE small reg breeder who produces only 2 litters per year who microchips EVERY SINGLE pup before they leave, and who takes back EVERY SINGLE one of their "grown up" dogs should the need arise. If for some GENUINE reason they can't take back one of their dogs in need they PAY SPR all costs associated with that dogs rescue and rehome. As far as the show ring is concerned, this breeder does not show, (does do agility though) and I would have to say the quality of the dog who comes from this breeder is top shelf!

    Interesting when you consider that as president of SPR Inc, I receive a LOT of enquiries from people asking me to recommend a breeder from whom they should buy a pup. Unfortunately, (and I truly mean this) these days I can only recommend ONE breeder in Victoria (I don't get involved in other states on this note). So to all those pei breeders who have proven to me that you don't care about your lines, your dogs or the truth, I couldn't give a flying **** if you show your dogs or not!

    Hope this make sense and doesn't sound side tracked DA......

    I should also add that there are also just a few reg breeders whose dogs NEVER seem to end up in care, some of these show and some do not. I have respect for these breeders also as they are obviously as fussy as I am as to where their dogs are placed.

    I would also like you to have a think about this......If, as a rescue group we can rehome somewhere close to 80 dogs (in Vic) with only one return out of all of these peibys, why do we end up with 1 in 4 dogs in rescue from registered breeders??? I would hasten to add that many of these are dogs who have been trained as show dogs which from a rescue perspective are as easy to spot as my fat a*se!! Answer: Because to these breeders it is about the money and not the quality of their lines

    The sad fact is that from my perspective it doesn't matter if a reg breeder shows their dogs or not, it is the genuine love of the breed and the desire to improve, improve, improve the lines of their dogs together with the ongoing welfare of their dogs that makes a worthwhile, caring and dedicated breeder whether active in the ring or not.

    Please note - no offence intended to ANYONE on this forum!
    Last edited by Shar Pei Rescue Victoria; 03-21-2010 at 11:21 PM.
    SPR fosters:Rowland, Matrix, Mia, Arizona, Romeo, Wrinkles, George, Molly, Su Lin, Ellie, Charlie, Charlotte, Lulu, Montana http://www.sharpeirescue.com.au

  7. #27

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    I do agree with you Shar Pei, but this one line stood out to me:

    "I would hasten to add that many of these are dogs who have been trained as show dogs which from a rescue perspective are as easy to spot as my fat a*se!! Answer: Because to these breeders it is about the money and not the quality of their lines"

    Show breeders don't necessarily breed for money, they do it to get a winning dog, so they have to be of good quality.
    I do agree that the quality is often at the expense of the dogs health though.

    There are very few breeders I trust these days.

    I miss the good old days when dog shows were a social gathering, not a cut throat business.

  8. #28

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    In my opinion breeders who don't show and even breeders of mixed breeds can still be "responsible". If they run all the necessary health and temperament tests, have proper waiting lists set up instead of selling their puppies off like furniture via newspaper ads or pet shops, educate the owners of the puppies on responsible ownership and take responsibility for the life they bring into the world, etc etc etc, they're a responsible breeder in my eyes.

  9. #29

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    Liza, how many people who breeds mutts that you know have had their dogs hip scored, or tested for PRA?

    I have nothing against mutts, they are great dogs, but they are cheap... no-one wants to pay $1000 for a mutt and that's how much they would be if people did the responsible thing and tested their dogs.

    It annoys me how people get sucked into the whole "hybrid vigor" thing. Yes it can be a good thing, if say a Poodle carries PRA (a common problem in the breed) and it is mated with a Dachshund that does not carry PRA (not a common problem) then you have a whole litter of pups who do not have the problem (but can still be carriers)
    There's your PRA problem sorted... for THAT generation. Odds are half the litter will still be carriers, and then if they are then bred with another cariier... bang! the problem is back again.

    But then you have the issue of Doxies back problems which don't need both parents to carry, combined with lets say, patella issues in the Poodle. It has fixed the eye problem, but you have gained both back and knee problems!

    If people want to breed mixes and do it PROPERLY I have no problem with that, I have just yet to meet someone who does.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crested_Love View Post
    Liza, how many people who breeds mutts that you know have had their dogs hip scored, or tested for PRA?
    I don't think this is relevant. I don't know many breeders (in fact I only know one in real life, and he's an irresponsible BYB), but just because "not many" people of mixed breeds do these things does not mean that none of them can. That's like saying that because many registered breeders actually couldn't care less about their dogs, ALL registered breeders must be bad and there is NO way for any of them to be responsible, which is just not true.

    I have nothing against mutts, they are great dogs, but they are cheap... no-one wants to pay $1000 for a mutt and that's how much they would be if people did the responsible thing and tested their dogs.
    I don't think that it's up to you or me to assume how much people want to pay for mutts or how much people want to charge. As long as all the testing and other things are done to ensure the wellbeing of parents and puppies, why do we care how much people are willing to pay?

    I don't think the parts about hybrid vigor are directed to me, right? I don't think I mentioned it in my post and I don't disagree with you on any of those points.

    If people want to breed mixes and do it PROPERLY I have no problem with that, I have just yet to meet someone who does.
    I have yet to meet a non-yappy Chihuahua, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that all chihuahuas are yappy by default
    Last edited by Liza; 03-22-2010 at 12:45 AM.

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