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Thread: Ok, Im So Confused Now(another Bull Breed Question)

  1. #1
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    Default Ok, Im So Confused Now(another Bull Breed Question)

    A lady came in with her dog today. I asked if he was an Amstaff. She told me 'yes, he is an American Staffordshire Terrier aka. Amstaff.'
    I was always under the impression that the American PIT BULL terrier and the Amstaff were basicly the same breed.
    I did a quick search AND there is the...
    American Pit Bull Terrier
    American Staffordshire Terrier
    Staffordshire Bull Terrier

    SO. I know the SBT is also known as a Staffy/Stafford.

    This is where im confused. If the AmStaff is short for American Staffordshire Terrier, then why have I always thought that the Amstaff is the unregistered breed of the APBT?????


    Get it??
    Education not Legislation

  2. #2

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    the APBT and the AST have different registries for the same dog, the SBT is the precourser to this breed when it was type and not a breed yet.

    The APBT was adopted into another registry with the name staffordshire terrier back in 1936, the standard for the staffordshire terrier was writen in collaberaton with the standard bearer in england as the two standard bearers were friends (this is all documented) around the same year over in england 1935? the precourser dog was adopted into the english KC as Staffordshire bull terrier.
    In 1976 the staffordshire terrier of America had a the word American added, due to the recently recognised english breed 'SBT' being accepted as a breed into the AKC to help stop any confusion.

    Now that will confuse you more I bet lol.

    my spelling is shocking i am sory
    Last edited by Beau; 02-18-2010 at 04:07 PM. Reason: spelling that i still didnt fix
    If you find yourself going through hell; Don't stay. Just keep on going.
    Beau.

  3. #3
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    Default

    Ok Myf really quick explanation...............


    APBT (US) - Registered breed in the US - not the same as Am Staff

    APBT (OZ) - Unpapered or mix bred Am Staff (only by LAW)

    AST (Am Staff) - Registered breed in both US and Oz

    So putting it simply an APBT is NOT the same BREED as a AST (Am Staff) however they are very similar! Due to the laws in Oz if you have an AST which is not papered or is a cross breed then it is automatically defined as an APBT.

    See why most people hate BSL so much? Bull ****!

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    Thanks Beau, but im still confused
    Education not Legislation

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  6. #6
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    Well there ya go! Thats the end of this thread!
    Thanks again Beau and Judge.
    Education not Legislation

  7. #7

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    I'll go hunt down the thing that shows it. it will place the original SBT standard, The original UKC sandard, and The adopted UKC standard into the AKC so you can see.
    Also a brief exchange between the standard bearers.

    I am not rushing to do it though. but I will place it in this thread so others may use it as refrence if they so wish, I will also copy part of the STCA of America breed study in wich they do not absolve differences.
    If you find yourself going through hell; Don't stay. Just keep on going.
    Beau.

  8. #8

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    Judge is right the APBT is not really recognised outside of its home country the US, unless it is an AKC registered dog and the country has accepted it.

    Sure APBT clubs recognise them, but that is only if they are registered with the ADBA as the dogs were judged using that standard in Australia for examle i was a member in the APBT club of Australia a few years ago and all shows were judged by ADBA represntatives and according to those standards.

    But Australia as a whole does not recognise the APBT as a breed., but they do recognise the AST.

    Any way I found the original 1935 SBT and 1936 APBT(UKC) I like the history, actualy love the history.
    But it makes my brain hurt.

    But remember now at the end of the day they all have different names, different registres and different standards so they are 3 seperate entities, there are many many dogs in the US that are dual registered AKC/UKC dogs, and some imports to Australia from th US who are dual registered, but the APBT is left off because there is no point to it in Australia. They arejust AST.

    And I am not saying they are all one and the same as there are years of seperate development, that would just be stupid. (ommiting the dual registered) But the fact is that the AST standard was brought about in part with collaberation of getting the same type of dog ( at that time) registered.

    I can also list the APBT iginal imports from england that featre in some SBT pedigrees. But again this will take time as I have throwen out most my refrences.



    The SBT had achieved recognition by the English Kennel Club in 1935. Jackie Fraser writes in "The American Staffordshire Terrier", this is the STCA book.

    "Brandon studied the Standards of other breeds while trading ideas with Jack Barnard and Joseph Dunn of England who were working to gain recognition for the SBT in their country. Utilizing this information along with a mental picture of the best Pit Bulls he had ever seen, he wrote the Standard for the breed which is still serving today."
    The author of the Staffordshire Terrio Standard, Brandon, kept in touch with his counterparts in England, and the English dog was granted recognition in 1935.

    Fraser continues,
    "On May 23, 1936, the first official meeting of the Staffordshire Terrier Club of America took place. The Standard was adopted and a resolution was passed to grant full recognition to the breed under the name Staffordshire Terrier. On June 9, 1936, the fledgling club was advised that the AKC had granted the request".

    Here is the SBT Standard which was in effect in 1936, so this is the one under which the breed achieved recognition in 1935:

    GENERAL APPEARANCE - The SBT is a smooth-coated dog, standing about 15-18" high at the shoulder. He should give the impression of great strength for his size, and although muscular should be active and agile.
    HEAD - Short, deep through, broad skull, very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop, short foreface, mouth level.
    EARS - Rose, half prick and prick; these three to be preferred, full drop to be penalized.
    EYES - Dark
    NECK - Should be muscular and rather short.
    BODY - Short back, deep brisket, light in loins with forelegs set rather wide apart to permit of chest development.
    FRONT LEGS - Straight, feet well padded, to turn out a little and showing no weakness at pasterns.
    HIND LEGS - Hindquarters well muscled, let down at hocks like a terrier.
    COAT - Short, smooth and close to skin.
    TAIL - The tail should be of medium length tapering to a point and carried rather low; it should not curl much and may be compared with an old-fashioned pump handle.
    WEIGHT - Dogs 28 - 38 lbs. Bitches 4 lbs. less.
    COLOR - May be any shade of brindle, black, white, fawn or red, or any of these colors with white. Black and tan and liver not to be encouraged.
    FAULTS TO BE PENALIZED - Dudley nose, light or pink eyes (rims), tail too long or badly curled, badly undershot or overshot mouths.


    the UKC American Pit Bull Terrier Standard in effect in 1936

    HEAD - Medium length, bricklike in shape, skull flat and widest at the ears, with prominent cheeks, free from wrinkles.
    MUZZLE - Square, wide and deep, well pronounced jaws, displaying strength. Upper teeth to meet tightly over lower teeth, outside in front.
    EARS - Cropped or uncropped (not important), should set high on head, and free from wrinkles.
    EYES - Dark and round; should set far apart low down on skull.
    NOSE - Black preferred with wide open nostrils.
    NECK - Muscular, slightly arched, tapering from shoulder to head, free from loseness of skin.
    SHOULDERS - Strong and muscular with wide sloping shoulder blades.
    BACK - Short and strong, slightly slopng from withers to rump.
    Slightly arched at loins which should be slightly tucked.
    CHEST - Deep but not too broad, with wide sprung ribs.
    RIBS - Close, well-sprung, with deep back ribs.
    TAIL - Short in comparison to size, set low and tapering to a fine point, not carried over the back.
    LEGS - Large round boned, with straight upright pasterns reasonably strong. Feet to be of medium size. Gait should be light and springy. No rolling or pacing.
    THIGHS - Long with muscles developed. Hocks down and straight.
    COAT - Glossy, short and stiff to the touch.
    COLOR - Any color or marking permissible.
    WEIGHT - Not important. Females preferred from thirty to fifty pounds. Males from thirty-five to sixty pounds.


    I will keep adding as I re find hings. It may all end up like jibberish and confuse more lol.
    If you find yourself going through hell; Don't stay. Just keep on going.
    Beau.

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