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Thread: Surgical Alteration. To Do or Not to Do?

  1. #1

    Default Surgical Alteration. To Do or Not to Do?

    Just a quick thread from thoughts raised elsewhere.

    We'd all like to think that many show dogs are perfect as they are, and that is supposed to be the idea. But they can be surgically altered... undescended testes, entroption or cherry eye surgery, tails broken and re set... etc etc... It is pretty rare for a judge to be able to spot many surgeries, so a breeders/exhibitor has to rely on their own ethical standards.

    I personally wouldn't show a dog that had been. But I have seen it. I worry more when those dogs are consequently bred from.

    I suppose what it means for us as pet owners is to be super selective in buying, even from registered breeders. Any thoughts from you guys?

    If you went to a dog breeder wanting a quality, healthy and mentally sound pup as a pet and all they talked about was their show wins would you be impressed? Or would you go elsewhere. Sometimes it can sound very impressive when big wins are listed in a puppy pedigree...

  2. #2
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    One thing I saw at a show was the most magnificent Bassett Hound, he was a real big beautiful man, and he had been de-barked, now that pist me right off.

  3. #3
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    I would walk away personally. If I was looking for a show prospect then I *might* continue talking to the breeder and asking questions about their dogs, but I'd want to know more about things like the common health issues and how frequently they are seen - I would run like hell from someone who said they have never had any issues period.

    Mind you I have only had rescues and fosters, so I'm probably not much help!

  4. #4
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    Oh my, how to word this...carefully?

    I have absolutely NO interest in whether the sire or dam, or their sire or dam won this title, that championship or anything else. Once they start on about it, I basically switch off.

    Over the years I have been to enough shows with friends and companions who were breeders and therefore on the 'circuit.' Too many corridors and tents of 'great champions' who would have ripped me apart because I walked past. Too many great champions who had NO IDEA how to relate to the world outside their ring.
    There are breeders out there who show their animals, but do so selctively, and always keep in mind that the dog's charcater is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of all. But there are a **** load who don't care. They just want to breed from a champion, which means diddly-**** to me.

    This is a rather touchy subject for me, as the whole idea that registered reputable breeders can only consist of ppl who show their dogs - is a complete falacy to me.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nattylou View Post
    Just a quick thread from thoughts raised elsewhere.

    We'd all like to think that many show dogs are perfect as they are, and that is supposed to be the idea. But they can be surgically altered... undescended testes, entroption or cherry eye surgery, tails broken and re set... etc etc... It is pretty rare for a judge to be able to spot many surgeries, so a breeders/exhibitor has to rely on their own ethical standards.

    I personally wouldn't show a dog that had been. But I have seen it. I worry more when those dogs are consequently bred from.

    I suppose what it means for us as pet owners is to be super selective in buying, even from registered breeders. Any thoughts from you guys?

    If you went to a dog breeder wanting a quality, healthy and mentally sound pup as a pet and all they talked about was their show wins would you be impressed? Or would you go for a pet. Sometimes it can sound very impressive when big wins are listed in a puppy pedigree...
    Not at all, what would impress me more for a pet is seeing the health reports on the sire and dam along with seeing the temperament of them.

    If I was looking at a show pup then my interst would be piqued by the sire or dams show wins, and its possible infuence on the pup.

  6. #6

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    I have to agree. I am constantly amazed at the number of show people who seem to have no regard for their dog's temperaments, instead only caring about all the minute details that should be of far lesser consequence (wins, coat etc etc).

    That being said I think those are probably the people who talk the loudest... Rather than the majority.

    But breeding dogs with defects just 'cause they win is a bit sad too. It's really the same as what we all criticise in puppy farmers. But it can and does happen all over.

    And Peiluver I'm hearing you. What's a big, beautiful Basset without a big beautiful baying bark?!

  7. #7
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    Take MAC for instance. Just half of the stuff she does to prepare a puppy for the kindest start in their new home, and to make things easier for the new owner - is 100% better than a huge amount of breeders pulling out ribbons, books and crap that doesn't matter to me at all as a PET owner.

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    Frosty has been surgically altered.

    She was desexed. But given she is a pound doggy of mysterious parentage - the whole surgical fix thing doesn't really apply. I can't show her and I can't breed from her and that doesn't bother me much.

    I've been cosmetically altered - my teeth needed straightening - and if I didn't get that done I'd have been having trouble keeping them clean and having trouble eating. Not to mention how ugly - I get really distracted by people with crooked or missing teeth now and yet it used to be really common. But I guess I'm not planning to enter any beauty contests or breed either.

    As for dogs having surgery - I think if it is for health reasons - ok. If it is for health reasons that are genetically based faults - questions have got to be asked about whether the line was worth continuing. Though we'd never ask that question about humans who ought not be breeding.
    Darwin Awards: Darwin Awards

    And if the primary reason for showing dogs was to prove the worth of their breeding potential then maybe dogs that have had surgery to repair genetic faults should be excluded. Though how they'd enforce that, I don't know.

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    My 2 cents worth as I do own a show dog.

    To me...Ruby's temperament and health are THE most important traits in her. That she might get a CH title is just a bonus I guess (if she does).

    You can have a Grand Champion bitch/dog that is a nasty piece of sh!t, but because of the Gr. CH title...they can and will sell those puppies even though the breeder knows that their bitch/dog doesn't have a good temperament. Breeders go on about the titles the Sire and Dam has and what we mere mortals really want to know is...do they have good temperament...are they good with children...are they healthy etc.

    Surgical alteration...IMO...if your dog/bitch needs surgical alteration for a recognised fault...eg Cryptorchidism....entropian...ectropian...over/under/level/wry bite...then they should NEVER be put back into the gene pool! They were born with these fault...they are genetic! NO amount of surgery is going to alter the fact...they still carry those genetic faults. SO MANY breeders STILL breed with bitches/dog who have really bad bites and that carries to the puppies.

    I overheard a lady talking to another SBT breeder at our local specialty show. She said....I KNOW he has a really significant under shot bite, but everything else is good on him, so we have used him for breeding................sigh! Sure, she might have been "lucky" and had puppies without bite problems, but the odds are...some would have bite problems and WHY ON EARTH would you knowingly do that to your litter of puppies?!?!?!? Bite problems can be quite devastating to your pups...severe over shot bite can make it difficult for them to eat and so can under shot bite!

    If Ruby had bite fault...then her reproductive organs would have ended in the bin! She has perfect scissor bite which shows her canines in the way they MUST with Staffies. If she had had really light eyes (very undesirable)...then I wouldn't use her either for breeding. If she had ANY form of genetic disorder/fault...then she will/would NOT be used and put back in the gene pool!

    There are "undesirable" faults and then there are "deal breakers" as far as breeding is concerned!

    In Staffies and this is just from MY point of view owning/showing them:

    Undesirable:

    Weak chest, body, head etc
    Tail set too low or high and incorrect length
    Medium coloured eyes (brown, but not hazel)
    Ears too big or small and/or not set correctly (full drop)
    Topline over or under crouped
    Lack of muscle tone and definition in body

    Deal breaker for ME (and with that I mean...snip snip and Bob's your Aunty):

    Cryptorchidism (one or no descended testicles)
    L2-HGA (devastating neurological disorder causing severe seizures in young Staffies and eventually death) showing in bloodlines
    HC (Hereditary Chataracts) showing in bloodlines
    Hazel eyes
    Black/tan colour (they look like Rottweilers in colour)
    Liver/chocolate colour
    Incorrect bite as in over/under shot, level, wry. missing P1's
    Entropian/ectropian
    Blue bloodlines (I do NOT want it in my bloodlines...EVER!)
    ANY form of aggression shown towards humans or other dogs!
    ANY allergy problems that can be genetic (like with Sumo)
    Any signs of OCD (which can be genetic and Staffies are prone to this)

    Now...the undesirable traits you can breed out of your lines (if you want to). If your bitch has lets say...a weak head...you can breed her with one that has CORRECT head...not an "overdone" head. Reason for this is...just because you mix and over and under done head...doesn't mean you get "perfect" heads on your puppies! It doesn't work like when you mix milk and chocolate and you get a "perfect" chocolate drink. You might get 6 pups...2 with slight under done head and 4 with correct head (you might get 6 puppies with correct or under done heads)...if you get my drift. A lot of first time breeders think....well, my bitch has a weak head...lets mate her with the biggest boofiest looking boy and it will all level out....WRONG! You are just introducing 2 undesirable traits...under done and over done.........phew....are you following me here, cause I am not
    hehedogs.gif

    The breeders of my Rottweiler boy owned the bitch. She was a bit "wet" (loose in skin)...loose of lip...beautiful black mouth...ears not quite correct...and had a very broad chest...she was a "skiddish"/nervous girl...have hip and elbow scores that were a tad too high. NOW...the Sire was quite dominant and somewhat aggressive...good ears...mouth not so good as per black colour...a slight under done chest...skin not too loose....perfect hip/elbow scores. Odin was born...his skin was too loose...he was nervous AND aggressive (dangerous combination in a Rottweiler)...VERY weak chest...semi ok ears (a tad big and floppy)...mouth not good re colour and he was diagnosed with elbow dysplasia at 9 months. There were bite faults in the breeding lines on the Dam's side and 2 pups were born with severe over shot bites...not Odin though.

    My point is...just because you find a Sire that levels out the faults of your bitch...doesn't mean the puppies get the good from both parents...trust me! They get what nature gave them as per % of genetic from each parent and severe faults should NEVER be introduced into the bloodlines again and that includes behavioural problems! It is the same as with humans...my littlesister and I have the same parents...we look nothing alike and we act nothing alike!

    Sorry for ranting on...just needed to state my point of view





    Last edited by Cleasanta; 02-06-2010 at 04:49 PM.

  10. #10
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    It happens in every animals show ring. I know rams stud owners that will cut out a black spot out of the ram because its the only problem with it.

    Livestock showrings are huge business. Like if your Ram got Gr CH at one of the leading ram shows he offspring will be worth alot of money. Eg one of his offspring rams could be sold for over $2000 . Also sperm from the GR CH could go for between $400 to $1000 for one straw.

    The GR CH will make offspring that wouldnt up the standards, so it would be desexed and turned into a wether and most probably be sold off.

    Alot of money is put into livestock breeding.

    Im sorry for using Livestock instead of dogs. i know more about livestock.. Sorry I hope it makes since

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