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Thread: Born Aggressive?

  1. #21
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    Possibly so Choppa (on all counts) but you need to think about the public perception of your breed - and mine!

    If a GSD came past me and was aggressive, I would 1. Not take it and 2. recommend it to be pts

  2. #22

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    As I'm not too sure if it is the way I am expressing myself or not...
    I have asked to borrow a quote from an experienced Amstaff person.

    quote ;
    I guess one should stop continuing the breed if one thought that DA is a fault. Dogs are animals, animals have their rules and a part of that normal behaviour is DA. If people start treating dogs like animals maybe they will stop asking such ridiculous questions...


    Now I am not deliberately trying to inflame the situation , I just wanted to bring another view into it.
    Which is why I asked the same questions you were elsewhere,to be sure that it wasn't just me with my blinkers on.
    Last edited by ChoppaChop; 03-05-2009 at 08:14 PM. Reason: political correctness
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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Occy View Post
    Possibly so Choppa (on all counts) but you need to think about the public perception of your breed - and mine!

    If a GSD came past me and was aggressive, I would 1. Not take it and 2. recommend it to be pts
    Ah but see , to me DA is certainly not an historical , integral part of the GSD history.

    And remember I did say that in rescue , I am reluctant to rehome a dog with issues.
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  4. #24
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    In response to your friend. I don't treat dogs as anything more than animals. Aggression is something to be rarely displayed. If your friend spent time watching dogs interact they might learn something about animal behaviour. They find my question ridiculous only because they are unable to answer it. But honestly I would prefer not to have a conversation THROUGH you, but rather WITH you. Their opinion holds no sway because they are not an authority, and they are not here to put forward their POV

    This person is also someone I would never respect as they don't believe dog aggression is a problem. People who think like that put more problem dogs in our society. Consequently they make breeds look bad and add weight to the BSL debate. Holler black and blue that they don't but the fact is that people will say to you - "your dog is dangerous, it wants to kill my dog, your breed is dangerous and should be banned". Lots of nice dogs around - staffy, amstaff, pitbull whatever breed you want to see. Only the best specimens of a breed should be bred from as breeding should only be done to improve a breed.

    Deleted the GSD bit as I misread your post - sorry - have had a headache for 3 days - so bad my teeth hurt
    Last edited by Occy; 03-05-2009 at 09:09 PM.

  5. #25

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    All so called 'DA' is caused by other aggressions, for example Predatory, play and competitive aggression, Dominance aggression, combative/competitive aggression (male to male dominance), Fear Aggression,Territory aggression, Resource aggression, even Redirected Aggression or a combination of the above in various levels.

    In the APBT, as a breed, we see primarily two types of aggression: competitive aggression and dominant aggression. These forms of aggression are natural and very common in a wide range of animals from humans to birds. Competitive and dominant aggressions are also common in all canines, including the APBT, and are natural, controllable, and certainly not the worst aggressive tendency for canines to possess.


    Even though competitive and dominant aggressions are perfectly normal for all canines, without question, a well bred, well trained and well socialized APBT, will not have overt or uncontrollable aggressive issues toward other dogs. But these dogs do exist and 1 may be in a litter of 10 for example comming from a Sire and dam with beautifull confident temperaments.

    This is likely hard to believe these days, and many novice and pit bull fighter wanna-be owners feel that overt aggression is a good thing.

    Overt aggressive displays, in dogs in general, as well as in the APBT, are typically rooted in fear issues. There is a saying that “a dog instinctively seeks to destroy that which it fears”.

    Their are the extremely confident dogs that stand their ground, these dogs are alert and very aware of their surroundings, these dogs also ACT RIGHT! when directly challenged (as we all expect them too). Thus, dog toward dog aggression is natural, but overt uncontrolled aggression in any form is not natural or a sign of a "confident" true APBT temperament.

    I hope this helps understanding.
    Last edited by Beau; 03-05-2009 at 09:42 PM.

  6. #26

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    Thanks for that reply Beau

    Sorry , I missed your post as well Occy , hope your headache improves , there is little worse pain

    I guess DA to me , depending on the animal involved and the level of said animal (taking into account breed,surroundings,levels of experience and managment and paramount is an animals quality of life), is not a reason to PTS.
    In some cases yes , I would agree.
    In most I would not.

    Last edited by ChoppaChop; 03-05-2009 at 10:08 PM.
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  7. #27
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    I'm going to bed as the drugs are kicking in. However, if I may be so frank, dominance aggression is complete bollocks. A truly dominant leader has no need to go around attackimg other dogs to remind them he is leader. That just makes him a bully.

    Flash is a dominant male. Billie is a dominant female. They had had a couple of scraps in the 6 months I have had her but touch wood I've not seen anything for weeks - they even lie together. Why? Cause they started up and I told em to piss off. Guess who is in charge? As the LEADER of my pack I have no need to be aggressive unless I am pushed. the dogs know not to push my buttons once they learn what they are and they dont.

    Don't use pseudo science as an excuse for owning an animal that wants to go and hurt another animal.

    As for competitive aggression. Please explain further as it is not a term that, in 15 years of dog training I have actually heard.

    I will finish off by saying - an animal that shows aggression is not necessarily an aggressive animal. Think about it.

  8. #28

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    Don't use pseudo science as an excuse for owning an animal that wants to go and hurt another animal.

    I dont see how we are using any excuse to own an animal that 'wants' to hurt another animal.


    I think I too will turn off puter and goto bed,come back tomorow .

    But I know I have nothing to think about when it comes to the last statement.
    Of course an animal that shows aggression does not make it an aggressive animal.
    That is what I have been saying.

    DA does not make an aggressive dog
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  9. #29

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    Before I go any further can you publically post your creds as a dog trainer for 15yrs Occy?

    I like to know who I am conversing with.

    Thanks

    I am happy to explain in detail about the different types of aggression that may manifest in to DA by any breed, also drives that are directly based on aggression.

    But of course I dont have any fancy pants titles like 'dog trainer'.


    You reccomend PTS over training, that is why I doubt your creds as a 'trainer' of over 15 yrs'!

    come on now i do hope it was the meds talking
    Beau






    I tell you what POST your creds up, if you have some, I am calling you out on it. because i think you are full of crap about that going by the post.

    I do hope you dont have any, as it would be extreamly sad that you have been involved in dog training for 15 yrs and dont know the different aggressions that can manifest as DA!!
    Beau

  10. #30
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    How insecure exactly are you beau? You like to put words in peoples mouths as well as "call them out" like some macho bogan. What colour flannel is in for weddings this year?

    Many people here already know my creds - but I will point out I never said I was a dog trainer - I have a real job - I said dog training. Suffice it to say I had 7 years at one club, 5 years at various other clubs - learning how they train, 2 years forming another club, 13 years assessing and rehabilitating dogs for shelters including AAPS, RSPCA and SDH. I've worked with behaviourists including Robert Holmes and Kaye Hargreaves to understand dog problems. If those places and people can trust me with a dog (Kaye even adopted a dog from me) I think that's some bloody good creds. I also live with a dog aggressive dog - not better "creds" than that. What are yours? Did didums do an NDTF course once?

    You seem to think you can put me on the back foot by "calling me out". I've laid mine on the line - now what about yours...

    I never said pts over training, however I don't believe something that is inherent in a dog can be trained out of them and thus they will always be suspect. After all, this is what this thread is about. Why would you breed known dog aggressive dogs when you can breed nice specimens of the breed?

    As for types of aggression manifesting as dog aggression - well duh. The most common is fear aggression. You however seem to paint dog aggression as something to be proud of, and almost desired in your breed. I hope to god I don't live anywhere near you, because your dogs would be a danger to mine.

    I suspect what you so loosely term competitive aggression is actually resource guarding. Try to use the correct terms when "calling one out"

    Choppa - dog aggression if shown ocassionally is NOT dog aggression. Dog aggression is actively wanting to kill other dogs every time a dog sees them. That is dangerous. For example: dog a gets into dog b's yard. Dog b attacks and kills dog a. IMO dog b is not inherently aggressive, they have just shown a territorial aggression which can be justified. However, dog a jumps into dog b's yard and kills dog b - I would call that dog aggression as the dogs purpose was to get into the other yard and kill the other dog. does that make sense?

    Still haven't knocked that headache on the err head - took two tablets last night - passed out for 8 hrs, got to work barely in time and am leaving to go home sick soon.

    My apologies to the mods if you feel I am being too err...aggressive - you need to lay out the boundaries for me as to what I can and cannot say.
    Last edited by Occy; 03-06-2009 at 08:39 AM. Reason: spelling

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