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Thread: Born Aggressive?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nattylou View Post
    Back on topic. In my experience ANY aggression is largely environmental. Yet dogs showing aggressive tendencies should never be bred from.
    But that would just be insane because some breeds can be naturally more potentially aggressive then other. For instance, German terriers are by nature quite intolerant with many other animals and tend to be aggressive. I know quite a few of those and actually all of them, males or females are in some way or another, more or less exhibited aggression towards other dogs/animals. This is btw one of my favourite breeds and I owned a bitch some time ago that was extremely aggressive towards other dogs (except few lucky individuals), male or female, hated cats and chased birds. It's her nature, I handled it properly, otherwise she was the sweetest dog you could ever imagine. I guess I should have put her to sleep when I found her and realised she was like that.

    Any dog can be potentially aggressive or develop aggression towards other dogs, whether is same sex aggression or something else. If I were a breeder I wouldn't breed when and if I'd realise that one just stands out enormously with its behavior towards and only towards people. Animals I can handle, but I wouldn't be happy if my dog hates people to the point when he wants to attack anyone that moves.

  2. #92
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    Hi Nattylou,

    You make some good points. I do not believe RB's offspring make up the majority of impounded animals though Dogs bred by RB's are impounded and are pts. My local pound works very proactivly and they will follow the breeder up via chipping (if chipped) or tatoo (if tatooed). The breeder is called, the repuatable ones are horrified and take them back into their fold. There are others are prepared to see the dog pts, many breed specific rescue groups also work hard for a dog left in this position.

    I believe the majority of dogs in my local shelter are from BYB's, pet shops, and unplanned/unwanted litters with families and poor their poor rehoming practice.

    I strongly agree with mandatory desexing UNLESS you are a RB who will take responsibility of your offspring for LIFE. That means that at any time during the dogs life they are at risk of being unwanted or neglected they come back to you. Repuatable Rescue groups do this with every single animal.

    I believe Rb's should desex puppies prior to going into homes as family pets to avoid unwanted litters and those puppies in turn falling into the wrong hands.

    I met the most hideous creature one day. He bred puppies (BYB) and was absolute filth. The parents were in poor condition, the puppies being sold at a kindy fete no less He took great pleasure in telling me how he paid so much for this female from a RB, but soon found out she was desexed..."she was no bloody good to me" (god knows what happened to her) He then bought another female from a RB and has been breeding with her ever since, She was 8 years old....and looked exhausted poor mite.

    I know of another case where a brilliant RB sold a male puppy, only to find he was taken by a puppy farmer for breeding. The little dog was half dead by the time she got him back. She now desexes EVERY single puppy before sale, no compromise.

    I have said many times the only way i would recommend buying a puppy is from a repuatable RB or rescue.

    I agree facts and figures are crucial to find the truth, although NOONE involved will support a public enquiry!!! to busy ducking and hiding
    The truth is the last thing they want at this point...

    RB's point the finger at BYB
    BYB point the finger at RB's
    Puppy farmers point the finger at BYB and RB's
    Pet shops point the finger at everyone!

    And still the carnage goes on, i hope you can relate to my frustration....

    It is extreamly distressing to witness this level of greed and denial.

    I do not want to see the end of any breeds. I adore dogs and could not live without them, mind you a doggy free day occassionally would be nice

    Oh and i do believe Rescue Groups need to be regulated also. Same things apply, and if a RG or private rescuer is not prepared to tow the line they should be removed. There should never be any comprimise in rescue on desexing, unless age, illness etc are attached, and at that point rehoming should occur within the rescue fold and is not uncommon (which i have done with Miss Daisy)

    Hope that helps lovely to speak with you again!

    Hey Sharoo Hot Post!

    Nic x

  3. #93

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    Billy..
    Its not at ALL about money its about HEALTH and i dont believe a pup should be desexed b4 6 months of age that means 6 months not 12 weeks, we offer money back when ppl desex their pets so this has NOTHING at all to do with money and im a bit mifted that you would suggest it is.

    For a male AST to grow to its full potential it needs hormones and ive seen a never ending line of ASTS desexed early even at 6 months of age and they look lean and leggy and never bodied up, now while that may be fine for you, for ppl who spend a lot of money looking for a particular type and style of dog they will want to wait until that dog has finished growing b4 they desex it and i FULLY SUPPORT that choice.

    ETA that i do take responsibility for the pups i breed and my doors are always open for them to come back...I have a 2 year old here at the moment that i took back 4 months ago after i discovered she wasnt being cared for correctly.
    As far as i am aware no one but me has EVER bred with my dogs .
    Last edited by MISCHIEFMAKA; 03-08-2009 at 05:14 PM.

  4. #94
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    I agree. It should not be profit driven, and most certainly about health and temperament.

    I have never said that RB's are in it for the money...if so please point that out to me.

    The Pet Industry on the other hand IS geared for profit, I am assuming you know what the 'pet industry' represents.

    It does NOT include RB's.

    In terms of desexing i fully understand the core issues, particularly in larger breeds, but ask you as a breeder how you ensure your own puppies OR their off spring do not fall into the wrong hands. Other than desexing vouchers, do you have a contract that you FOLLOW up on for dogs sold as family pets to desex and eliminate further unscrupulous breeding? What do you do?

    How do you achieve that personally as i am interested in your views as things are clearly not working!?

    I am speaking of family pets here who are sold by RB's to families AS a family pet. Not to another RB, not for further breeding by RB's or the ring!

    If i rehomed all my rescues undesexed I could not sleep as i am knowingly contributing to the problem. Despite the best of intentions of people at face value, stuff comes up even with the best owners, and it is put off or simply never addressed. I pay for everything, including lifetime registration of all dogs and for good reason.

    I am happy to know you have taken one of your own back into your fold and commend it, though sending out undesexed 'family pets' means you are potentially responsible for much more that those you have personally raised. Is that an unreasonable thought or suggestion?

    Nic

  5. #95

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    I have never said that RB's are in it for the money...if so please point that out to me.
    I never said you said we were in it for the money i said you were implying that money was the reason we dont desex, i have quoted your post below.

    I would like to know why undesexed dogs from RB's are sold prior to sale considering the scale of the problem, BSL in these breeds and the kill rates??

    Surely if you are passionate re the breeds you would ensure their wellbeing no matter what the cost!
    Other than desexing vouchers, do you have a contract that you FOLLOW up on for dogs sold as family pets to desex and eliminate further unscrupulous breeding? What do you do?
    Not that i feel any need to justify myself to anyone...
    As it happens i do have contracts on many of my pups but im also intelligent enough to know these are rarely worth the paper they are written on...You cant register a BYB litter so what exactly do you think the chances are of you ever knowing ( let alone PROVING) that someone BYB a puppy you sold them????

    I have contracts that cover everything from what the dog is used for and how it should be housed and treated but at the end of the day you really have to rely on your personal judgment of your puppy buyers, I have regular contact with a large portion of my puppy buyers so i know and trust them.

    As for rehoming and rescues i agree totally that they should be desexed b4 being rehoused...If i rehome any adults they are desexed first.

    You need to know that we as RB do not want ppl breeding with pet puppies so we do all that we can to ensure it doesnt happen...

  6. #96
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    Oh dear! you are well and truly on the wrong track and i am having a good laugh now....

    I am not implying anything regarding RB's not desexing to maximise profit.

    I am not stupid! I desex, vacc, chip, heartworm test/treat, worm, remove dew claws, flea treat, groom etc and lifetime register along with any other vet work needed before i even put dogs up for adoption. All for $330! Not to mention every other thing!

    RB's put a far greater price on dogs than that with less than half the vetwork...

    I agree contracts mean squat and you are obviously well aware that once a puppy leaves your care you have no hope in addressing issues which is something at least.

    So what are YOU doing as a RB to make a difference? That is what i want to know.

    Are you able to have a basic conversation regarding this, despite the fact that we disagree or are you beyond that?

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    The Pet Industry on the other hand IS geared for profit, I am assuming you know what the 'pet industry' represents.

    It does NOT include RB's.

    In terms of desexing i fully understand the core issues, particularly in larger breeds, but ask you as a breeder how you ensure your own puppies OR their off spring do not fall into the wrong hands. Other than desexing vouchers, do you have a contract that you FOLLOW up on for dogs sold as family pets to desex and eliminate further unscrupulous breeding? What do you do?

    How do you achieve that personally as i am interested in your views as things are clearly not working!?

    I am speaking of family pets here who are sold by RB's to families AS a family pet. Not to another RB, not for further breeding by RB's or the ring!

    If i rehomed all my rescues undesexed I could not sleep as i am knowingly contributing to the problem. Despite the best of intentions of people at face value, stuff comes up even with the best owners, and it is put off or simply never addressed. I pay for everything, including lifetime registration of all dogs and for good reason.

    I am happy to know you have taken one of your own back into your fold and commend it, though sending out undesexed 'family pets' means you are potentially responsible for much more that those you have personally raised. Is that an unreasonable thought or suggestion?

    Nic
    Hey again Nic.
    Yes the Pet Inductry stinks. It is the source of many problems as education and support are not a part of it.

    There are limits on what any breeder can do - they can only do so much. People pay for an animal, they have a certain level of choice in what happens with it. The best breeders I know of consider every new owner as part of their friends network. So after all their screening has gone through and they have decided to place a pup with these people, contact and support become utmost.

    I know breeders who are in constant contact with all people they sell pups to (but then the breeders I know don't ever breed a large volume of dogs!). Email is fantastic for this - quick and easy, photos are no problem! They are willing not only to take a dog back at any stage in it's life but will also take them in for holidays etc if owners have to go away and have no other dog accommodation. I also know breeders who regularly keep contact with rescue organistaions, pounds etc and through this have found dogs who have ended up in unfortunate circumstances.

    I have also met my share of ratbag registered breeders. Haven't we all? We are dealing with humans here - who basically suck as a whole.

    We as individuals need to act together to drive education of the wider community. Whether we own and love purebreds or crossbreds or everything in between.

    And yes, I agree that some breeds are more prone to aggression - it's in their make up! But some breeds are newer than others. An Amstaff or Pittbull is a younger breed. And although they are now bred as companions, their origins (which included being bred for aggression) are closer in time. We need to give these breeds time and careful breeding to realise and solidify their best attributes (which are the sides of them that we love!). Others also have it in their make up - thinking Akita, Shiba Inu, CHow Chow, many terrier breeds... others I'm forgetting... and responsible breeders are always careful with temperaments.

    Sorry again to ramble...
    Last edited by Nattylou; 03-08-2009 at 09:01 PM. Reason: My spelling really stinks someimes!

  8. #98
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    Oh no Nattylou you are so spot on i am nearly in tears

    I agree 100% and agree contact and support is so important.

    Great RB's will not settle for anything less which is awesome. I agree email is the best for contact, support and updates!

    Gosh i hope and pray with all i am, for the doggies with nothing, that we can get this right...

    Nic x

  9. #99

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    We need to stick together, our differences in breeds or other opinions aside, for dogs. For what they give us that no person or other animal does.
    We need to make sure that new owners get that, and when things are hard for them that we are there to help them and their dogs through.
    We need to be sure that they know how precious every dog is... whether a champion in the show ring or just in our hearts - it's all the same really.

  10. #100
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    So very true Nattylou I couldnt agree more...

    Nic

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