Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 33

Thread: De-barking Issues

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Near Newcastle, NSW
    Posts
    4,215

    Default

    I think it is one thing for the RSPCA to remove the dogs who have been debarked...it is a completely different kettle of fish when they took the dogs that have not been debarked. If this was purely and simply because of the debarking issues...then it doesn't make any sense they took the other dogs.

    None of us know the full story as of yet. Maybe there were other reasons for the RSPCA to seize the dogs...who knows?!? I don't think it is fair to speculate in this matter. I didn't read the whole thread (it was really long)...how many dogs have been debarked out of how many dogs this breeder/exhibitor owned? I don't know if Tibbies are notorious for barking, since I don't know the breed.

    I don't believe in debarking a dog...but if it came to a choice between PTS and debarking...then the issue gets serious. There is a difference between "annoying barking" and a matter of life and death IMO!

    I have never had a "barker", so I don't know. My dogs bark of course...when they see a possum or are playing.

    Was the debarking done out of convenience? Was it done because they WERE fair dinkum barkers? Was it done because breeder hadn't put in the time to train and control the barking?

    Should every avenue have been exhausted before debarking...for sure and perhaps it was! I think the arguement that it is "cruel" might be a bit thin in my opinion. We don't blink having our dogs desexed...removing their reproductive organs, because that has become the norm here in Australia and convenient for us humans! Removing the reproductive organs from humans have huge repercussions...how would that be any different for a dog? How many people think that doing this to dogs is "cruel" too?

    People say...debarking diminished the dog's way of communicating. A dog communicate with NOSE first....then EYES....THEN ears! You won't see many dogs running up to a stranger dog and just start barking unless they are seriously unbalanced. They smell first....read body language...and then hear vocalisation. When we desex...we SERIOUSLY alter the dog's body smell and personality...so why is that not "cruel" in our eyes?!? For sure...desexing stops a lot of unwanted litters, but that is for a different discussion.

    We get hind dew claws (thumb on back legs) snipped off without anaesthetics on tiny puppies...how is that not cruel? The definition of cruelty is to inflict intentional harm or pain! Tail docking used to be the norm (still legal in WA)...we didn't see that as cruel until the laws were put in place. Every Rottweiler we saw had a docked tail, but did we even think for one second that the tail had been snipped off without anaesthetics at 2-4 days? The arguement was...dogs need their tail to communicate and it is cruel! EVERY single Rottweiler...Doberman...Pointer...Weimeraner etc etc had docked tails...it was done for years and years!!! All of a sudden it becomes a "cruel" thing to do! That is the same as saying EVERY dog with a docked tail wasn't capable of communicating with other dogs...there must have been A LOT OF unbalanced dogs for many MANY years who suffered detrimental lasting effects from having their tails snipped at 2 days!!!

    I have NEVER met a dog that has been debarked (or don't think I have), so I can't say that I think it is cruel. Cruelty would be if the dog suffers...do they suffer from having had this done...I don't know! They can still smell (first port of communication)...they can still see (second port of communication) and they CAN still vocalise (third port of communication).

    In my opinion...if it was a matter of the choice between having my dog put down or debarking it due to being a "nuisance dog"...I would choose debarking at any time. If it was a matter of doing it for convenience...no I wouldn't!

  2. #22

    Default

    In my opinion, if the owner was willing to put their dog down instead of looking at options like rehoming or hey, maybe some actual training and exercise, that owner should never have gotten a dog in the first place. Saying that debarking is ok because it's better to debark a dog than put it down is like saying it's OK to hit someone because hey, at least roughing them up a little is better than shooting them in the head.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Wodonga
    Posts
    2,672

    Default

    De-barking is the height of cruelty and laziness IMO. Mums neighbours did it to their dog - a gorgeous Anatolian and the dog sounds in pain every time he barks. Has it solved the problem of nuisance barking? Well yes - if you consider that being the same as sticking cotton wool in your ears when a baby cries.

    I have had problem barkers - and I worked on changing the situation for the better.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Numurkah
    Posts
    681

    Default

    Couldnt agree more on that, first time I ever came across a de-barked dog was at one of our local shows, a beautiful big Bassett Boy, ( one of my all time favourite breeds), and I actually thought he was chocking (sp), owner was near by so I asked if anything was wrong with him, "Oh no, he has been de-barked" Wasnt sure wether to grab the dog and run or belt the stupid cow. It was disgustingly cruel.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Numurkah
    Posts
    681

    Default

    Anne, I dont mean the act of :debarking" itself being cruel, it would have been under vet care of course. Just hearing the horrible noise coming from the beautiful Bassett, no way did it even come close to even a muffled bark, it was that, that was so upsetting to myself and my daughter who also had never heard of de-barking.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Wodonga
    Posts
    2,672

    Default

    The cruelty isn't from the action, it is from what the dog is being deprived of - one of it's natural modes of expression.

    As for that scenario Anne, I would not adopt a dog like that - way too many problems to deal with - the least of which would be the barking.

  7. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Liza View Post
    Personally, I don't have any sympathy for this woman. "Altering" a dog's vocal cords so that one of its most natural behaviors is hindered because you're too lazy to train your dog or some other pathetic excuse is akin to torture to me and should be illegal. I agree that the whole not being able to exhibit debarked dogs even though it's legal to do it thing is stupid. In my opinion, it shouldn't be legal to debark your dog in the first place. If you aren't able to deal with a dog's most basic of behaviors, don't get a dog.
    But mating and breeding are part of a dog's natural behaviours but we alter them without a second thought, because those behaviours (and their results) don't fit in with human's social needs and expectations of dogs. Excessive barking doesn't either.

    ETA - mating and breeding are actually more than basic behaviours of dogs, they are the very instinctive reason that animals are on the earth, all instinct leads to continuation fo their species. So how cruel is it to remove that behaviour? Torture?
    Last edited by Nattylou; 12-13-2009 at 10:31 PM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Devonport, Tasmania
    Posts
    6,675

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nattylou View Post
    But mating and breeding are part of a dog's natural behaviours but we alter them without a second thought, because those behaviours (and their results) don't fit in with human's social needs and expectations of dogs. Excessive barking doesn't either.

    ETA - mating and breeding are actually more than basic behaviours of dogs, they are the very instinctive reason that animals are on the earth, all instinct leads to continuation fo their species. So how cruel is it to remove that behaviour? Torture?
    You have a very valid point there.

    As we evolve and learn, everything changes. Gone are the generations who would rub a puppy's nose into it's urine if it had an accident inside the house. Gone are the generations who believed a hit would fix every bit of unwanted behaviour.

    (Well, not gone totally, I'm afraid.)

    I have never had a dog de-barked, but know one person who did. He was a pensioner who's dog was his only companion. he lived in a block of units with too many complaints about his Fifi barking. he could NOT move reseidence, so de-barking was his last option if he wanted to keep his dog with him, rather than give him away. I understood where this gentleman was coming from - Fifi was his one love in life - what else could he do IMO.

    Overall, i would think that I do not agree with de-barking in general, but then again I have never walked that road, and as someone pointed out here on a different thread - walk a mile in my shoes before you judge...

  9. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nattylou View Post
    But mating and breeding are part of a dog's natural behaviours but we alter them without a second thought, because those behaviours (and their results) don't fit in with human's social needs and expectations of dogs. Excessive barking doesn't either.

    ETA - mating and breeding are actually more than basic behaviours of dogs, they are the very instinctive reason that animals are on the earth, all instinct leads to continuation fo their species. So how cruel is it to remove that behaviour? Torture?
    Yes, because you cannot "train" a dog out of going in heat and because we will be responsible for creating unwanted puppies and dog overpopulation if we do not alter our dogs. It isn't that the behaviors don't fit in with human social needs - that's not why I desexed Keeda. It's that her puppies would likely suffer in pounds or get killed or abandoned at the hands of irresponsible owners had she had puppies.

    Debarking a dog doesn't help dogs in any way. It doesn't provide any benefit other than to the owner, by shutting up an animal because we're too lazy or incompetent to take responsibility for this creature that relies on us to take care of it and decided to just "fix" the problem with a scalpel.

  10. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nattylou View Post
    But mating and breeding are part of a dog's natural behaviours but we alter them without a second thought, because those behaviours (and their results) don't fit in with human's social needs and expectations of dogs. Excessive barking doesn't either.

    ETA - mating and breeding are actually more than basic behaviours of dogs, they are the very instinctive reason that animals are on the earth, all instinct leads to continuation fo their species. So how cruel is it to remove that behaviour? Torture?
    Yes, because you cannot "train" a dog out of going in heat and because we will be responsible for creating unwanted puppies and dog overpopulation if we do not alter our dogs. It isn't that the behavior of mating doesn't fit in with my needs - that's not why I desexed Keeda. It's that her puppies would likely suffer in pounds or get killed or abandoned at the hands of irresponsible owners had she had puppies. We are responsible for the overpopulation of dogs, now it's up to us to fix the problem by not breeding dogs like rabbits.

    Debarking a dog doesn't help dogs in any way. It doesn't provide any benefit other than to the owner, by shutting up an animal because we're too lazy or incompetent to take responsibility for this creature that relies on us to take care of it and decided to just "fix" the problem with a scalpel.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •