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Thread: Keeping Alpha Position

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    I'm really sorry you find yourself offended Huskymum, that wasn't my intention at all. However, I still hold my opinion about what was written in that text. Clearly, I look at it from dogs perspective and I absolutely do not agree with most of it. So, sorry again.
    From my reading around the net I tend to agree Fedra. I know the op said it was a guide and I feel bits and pieces are great in it but the prevailing opinion with total alpha control is that you would have a cowed and beaten down dog with no room left to move. Note I said ALL was put in place, not the bits that we feel would work.

  2. #22
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    OK since I turned up to sooo rude, I'll try and explain/debate on few things written here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huskymum View Post
    As Diesel is a wolf hybrid we need to keep our Alpha status!
    Diesel is NOT a wolf hybrid, he is a breed of dog called Siberian Husky registered under FCI Standard No 270/ 24. 01. 2000 / GB. Just because in his appearance he assembles a wolf a little bit - he's not a wolf or wolf hybrid.

    Definition of hybrid: The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

    Since your dog is a mix of husky bitch and a husky dog, it's simply - just a dog, and it's been like that for a very long time.

    Below are a list of rules every dog owner should follow to ensure your dog knows his place in your human pack.
    We people are not dogs, and do not form packs. We don't and simply can't mimic dog's body language, smell and other means by which dogs can communicate. Dogs also form groups, are social, but there are many individuals that are quite happy to live single lives and do well (meaning ones that are stray, wild etc.) People live in families, and dogs become part of our families. Rules however, must exist, because our children must follow the rules too, we all have to play by some rules to have harmony in our lives.

    If your dog guards his food, or growls at humans in the family, and especially if you own a wolf hybrid, these rules should be strictly followed.
    It's not just black or white. There are reasons why some dogs guard food or their space and it usually isn't because they're bad but because there' either lack of trust towards person/people, or there are some reasons from dog's past that might trigger such behaviour.

    Sometimes, a dog might not be showing signs of aggression, however the dog is suddenly showing signs of separation anxiety, such as destructive behaviors when you leave the house. A dog who steals food from human hands has no respect for the human, and therefore do not see them as pack leader. A dog who questions his place in the household pack can sometimes cause him to suddenly display destructive behaviors, as the dog is confused and taking his anxiety out on your house.
    Separation anxiety, stealing food etc. described here are certenly NOT a sign that you're not the "alpha". This very sentence pushed me to say the article was "c**p", so sorry, but I really do think it is.

    A dog who knows his place in his human pack is a happy dog. A dog who does not is a confused dog and can exhibit many unwanted behaviors because of it.
    Dogs do have emotions and they show them in a way we might not like it. Separation anxiety is one of them. But if trained properly right from the start there should be no problems. Also, separation anxiety can be triggered due to some stressful situations, changes in our lifestyles, even OUR emotional changes and stress because dogs (especially those that feel closely connected to their owners) do feel it. So, no, please do not be harsh to your dogs because you simply think they are trying to overpower you.

    1. The number one way to communicate to a dog that you are his pack leader is to take him for a walk. Not the type of walk most humans take their dogs on but a pack walk where the dog is made to heel beside or behind the human who is holding the lead. This is most important for all dogs, as in a dog's mind, the leader always leads the way.
    Here's another one I don't see the point in... Why does the dog have to walk behind you? Do you think wolves behave like that? No they don't. A stable wolf pack consists of male, female and their offspring. Sometimes the offspring finds mates elsewhere and they join the pack (group), but sometimes they form packs (groups) of their own. Their behaviour and treatment of eachother is nothing like we often read. The offspring eats first, or they all eat together. If food is scarce, only offspring eats. In larger groups leaders are often changing their place and are not always infront like its some sort of rule. The leader or as we call it "alpha" is a leader because he deserves to be that and its achieved by merits not violence. So if not even wolves behave that way, why should we people force dogs (who don't even behave like wolves nor live like wolves) into something that is not in their nature?

    A dog must not be allowed to sniff or eliminate anywhere he wishes, but where you allow him.
    And what does that have to do with "alpha" or not "alpha"? It's about manners. Of course you will teach your dog not to urinate or defecate wherever.

    One marking against a tree is enough for male dogs. The dog should be concentrating on following the human, not worried about leading the way.
    So, the dog should not be allowed to be what it is - a dog? Wow! You know what, my dog will urinate as much as he feels he needs. It's his walk for god's sake, that's why you take him for a bloody walk to pee and to poo and to have his excercise. Of course, good mannered dog will be thaught not to pee on every corner or on the car tires or on the wall of someone's home. But that doesn't have anything to do with "alpha" status.

    Not only will this release built up energy, but it will satisfy the dog's instinct to migrate, which all dogs possess. Dog's who have excess energy bottled up inside them and who do not have their migration instinct met will develop various instability issues that most people mistake for being breed traits.
    Why not just take him for a good walk/run/play with other dogs, or yourself? Play fetch, tug-of-war or whatever? Take him for a swim? Let him explore in the nature and experience his environment? Teach him something through play and fun? That will release the excess energy, and stimulate his mind.

    2. All humans must eat Before the dogs, as the leader always eats first.
    Not so. I described that above with wolves. Offspring always eats first. Leader eats last if there's any left, or doesn't eat at all if the food is scarce. They're not selfish, their instinct is to procreate. And anyway, how do you think you can fit in your lifestyle, cause in all my life I just think it possibly can't work for me. My dogs get 2 meals a day - 6 AM and 6 PM. They know it and there's no way I can forget because they'll remind me. In between we eat, drink, have snacks, have guests sometimes who also eat... So my dogs are "alphas" over us? C'mon guys!!! Get real!

    3. No table scraps should be fed to the dogs during a meal.
    That's about manners. I admit, mine are sometimes awful when it comes to that hahaha. Yes, sometimes I do give them off the table. But they don't stand beside us watching and drooling, I thought them not to. I just give them scraps sometimes. Are they dominate over me? Have any of my dogs ever been (and I did this with all of them). Well... I just can't recall it.

    4. Feedings must be at a scheduled time. (no self feeding dog food dispensers should be used, as this allows The Dog to Choose when he eats.)
    That's correct, but for the wrong reason of course.

    5. Humans must not let the dog go through any doorways first. Or up or down the stairs first. Dogs must always go through the doorways or up and down stairs After the humans, as the leader of the pack always goes first. If the dog does not stay behind the humans, the dog must be told to "stay" and given the command to "come" after all humans have passed through. (Read Training to find out the necessary basic commands all dogs should know. These commands are vital in the communication between you and your dog and should always be taught.)
    This also cracks me up big time. How, how on earth do you do that??? I mean, you people live with your dogs 24/7. Do you really carefully watch your dog's every move 24/7 being careful not to let your dog go through the door before you? I must admit, I'd get tired of this within first half an hour. How do you get in the car? You go in first then pull your dog after you so he doesn't become an "alpha"? A bit squashy and unnecessary if you ask me. My home is designed so it's easier if my dogs go through the door first. Are they making me worth less because i allowed them so? I don't think so. They do however know the meaning of the words "stay", "wait", "stop", "go", "sit" and many others which I can use as necessary.

    6. When you have left the house or the room, even for a minute and come back in the room, ignore the dog for a few minutes.
    ???? (confused. very confused)

    7. A simple obedience command such as “Sit” should be given before any pleasurable interaction with the dog. (i.e. play session, petting, feeding or a walk etc…)
    petting? playing??? why? before the meal I find OK, because of good manners of course. I don't even have to say it these days as they politely sit and wait for food to be poured in the dishes.
    The children should give the dogs commands at least once a day and reward with a treat when the command is followed. A simple “Sit” will do.
    My dogs do not listen to the kids (I have a niece). They're just not acustomed to the tone of her voice and her "sit" means nothing to them. It's well known that dogs learn commands by the tone, movement etc. They actually do not understand the words.

    No treat should be awarded if the dog does not follow the command.Show your dog he does not get anything for free. His food, water, treats, even praise/love have to be earned by doing something. Even something as little as sit, come, or making him wait for the treat while you hold it in front of him. Make sure the dog takes the treat from your hands gently. Do not tolerate a mouthy dog.
    Well, yes and no. Of course if you're trying to teach the dog a command you award accordingly. But to not give the water or cuddle without a treat makes no sense. My dogs are my partners, my friens, not servants or slaves. Education, upbringing and nurture are not about having a slave, but having a well mannered companion.

    8. You should not lay on the floor to watch TV when the dog is around and no one should roll around the floor playing with the dogs, as a human should never put himself in an equal or lesser height position than the dog.
    Oh- MY-GOD!!!! hahaha I basically live on the floor with my dogs or invite them on couch with me, depending what feels comfy. I even eat sitting on the floor watching TV. Wow! I must be a veeerry submissive person having dogs dictating me around hahaha Hmmm haven't noticed yet

    9. You are the one who greets newcomers first, the dog is the last who gets attention (the pack leader is the one who greets newcomers and lets the rest know when it is safe to greet the newcomer)
    Again, good manners. Pack leaders do not behave in such way, and if they do it's not because of greeting, but protection.

    10. If a dog is laying in your path, do not walk around the dog, either make the dog move or step over the dog.
    nonesence

    11. During the time you are establishing your higher pack position, no hugs should be given to the dog by you, as a dominant dog may consider this a challenge of power.
    big time nonsence. It's not in dogs nature to hug and cuddle and many dogs who are not accustomed to that do not like it and might react to that act. If they react it's not because they feel challenged it's because it's not natural or common for them and they might feel threatened or so uncomfortable so they react. Some won't react but would show signs of displeasure such as licking lips, turning head away, or just sitting very still with ears pulled backwards.

    12. If you establish eye contact with the dog, the dog must avert his gaze first. If the human averts first this reinforces the dogs higher power position.
    I don't know, it just doesn't work like that for me. We even play staring games sometimes but haven't felt that I'm less worthy to them to these day.

    Tell the children Not to have staring contest with the dog, as if they avert or blink first, it will only reinforce, in the dogs mind, that He is Top Dog.
    I'll tell children not to do that because children are children and shouldn't be allowed to do anything unsupervised with the dog. Blinking or not, staring provokes the dog whether its a game provocation or something else.

    13. Ideally dogs should not sleep in your bed. In the dog world the most comfortable place to sleep is reserved for the higher members of the pack.
    Yadda yadda yadda... have and will sleep with my dogs as long as I shall live

    If a dog is allowed to sleep on the bed, the dog must be invited up and not be allowed to push the humans out of their way. Making them sleep at the foot of the bed rather then for example on your pillow is best.
    So what, if in the middle of the night my dogs decide to go and have a drink, I have to wake up again and invite them up again? Shall I have a golden embossed invitation ready? Or if they decide they're hot, so they go on the floor for a while, then later they'd like to lay bside me, I also have to wake up and have an invitation ready for them? Sorry, waaay to much effort, and i just love to sleep and not to be desturbed as I bite and get cranky a lot. They sleep at the foot as I don't feel like breathing in possiible hair that usually do fall off.

    14. Dogs must never be allowed to mouth or bite anyone at any time, including in play.
    The bite inhibition must be taught since early age. However, biting is part of who they are and the way they express their emotions and feelings. Some dogs stop mouthing completely, some still use it when playing. As long as they know how to hold I'm fine and they can do it. As a matter of fact, my little one does it all the time. Very, very gently.

    15. Any attention given to the dog, including petting should be given when the Human decides attention is to be given (absolutely No Petting when the dog nudges or paws you or your hand. This would be letting the dog decide and reinforcing, in his mind, that he is higher on the scale than the human.)
    another nonsence. as I said, I live with creatures that have their needs and emotions and feeligns. If for some reason my dogs feel like they need my attention, cuddles and hugs, I will gladly provide them with it. I I will be nothing less a leader then I am. This statement actually makes me very very sad.

    16. Games of fetch or play with toys must be Started and Ended by the Human.
    don't think so. again, they're not robots.

    17. Very dominate dogs who have a problem with growling should not be allowed to lie on your furniture, as the leader of the pack always gets the most comfortable spot. Dogs belong on the floor. If you do decide to allow your dog on the furniture, you must be the one who decides when he is allowed up and you must be the one who decides when he is to get off, by inviting him and telling him to get down.
    Dogs growl for many different reasons, and as I said way earlier, it's not just black or white, it's much much deeper.

    18. No tug-of-war, as this is a game of power and you may lose the game giving the dog a reinforcement (in the dog's mind) of top dog.
    It's our favourite game. Sometimes I win sometimes I let them win. Haven't noticed I was less of a leader in all these years with all these dogs...

    19. Dogs need to be taught a “Drop it” or release command. Any objects the dog has in his possession should be able to be taken away by all humans.
    Yes they should. It's part of the education not because all posessions are for humans.

    20. Dogs own no possessions, everything belongs to the humans.
    Heil Hitler. Sorry, I just had to hahaha this sentence sounds so naci to me hahaha

    They are all on "loan" from the human family. You should be able to handle or remove any item at all times from the dog with no problems from the dog. Even if you are taking a chicken bone out of the dog's mouth.
    Yes that's right. It's about good manners and most of all safety.

    21. Dogs should not be allowed to pull on the leash. When they do this they are leading the way and it is the humans that need to lead the way and show they're higher up in the pack order. (In the wild, the leader of the pack always leads the way; the leader leads the hunt.)
    I explained "the leader of the "pack" theory". Dogs pull for many different reasons, but trying to become your "leader" is definetely not one of them.

    22. When you put his food dish down, he must wait until you give the "OK" to eat it.
    good manners
    When your dog calms down and waits patiently, (ears set back, head lowered even slightly, laying down is good if he is relaxed with his ears back, No signs of growling on his face) invite him to eat his food. The people in the family the dog growls at should feed the dog the majority of the time.
    So, when he shows signs of discomfort it's Ok to feed them. My dogs have ears up front, they're tense and happy in anticipation, their eyes glow and tails wag; my rottie lets those growling mumbling sounds of happines (she does that often as she's very vokal). Shall I stop feeding them as they are actually overpowering me?

    23. Small dogs or puppies who demand to be picked up or put down should Not get what they want until they sit or do another acceptable quiet behavior. They should not be put down unless they are settled quietly in your arms.
    ?

    24. Dogs should Never be left unsupervised with children or Anyone who cannot maintain leadership over the dog.
    first one I totally and completely agree.

    25. To reinforce your position even more, you can make your dog lie down and stay there for 20 to 30 minutes a day. Tell him to lie down, then tell him to stay. If he tries to get up, correct him.
    It's not about reinforcing position, it's about obedience, although I don't see the point in dog lying for 20-30 minutes for no reason. Dogs in some sort of trainig, fine if necessary, but pets, no reason.

    26. Last but certainly not least... when you are around your dog avoid emotions such as fear, anxiety, harshness or nervousness. Your dog can sense these emotions and will see you as weak. This will escalate your problem as your dog feels an even stronger need to be your leader. Think Big and Powerful and be calm, assertive, and consistent.
    So many moods we go through in our lives and have no control over them. Especially when around dog. I'd say that it's correct if you're approaching a new dog or something like that depending on situations, but not being able to express my emotions in my own home because I fear that some four legged fury creature is lurking around to "overtake my position" is plain silly.

    By incorporating all these behaviors in his normal day your dog will realize that you the human are alpha over him and he is beneath you.
    Sorry, but when I add all these things up, where's the time left fo ME, my partner, cooking, fun, relaxing.....

    Obedience exercises and classes are great and very useful, however, obedience training alone does not address pack behavior problems.[/COLOR]
    Yes it is. And no, it doesn't and it can't
    Last edited by Fedra; 11-04-2009 at 09:59 PM.

  3. #23
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    I was going to do what Fedra did and debunk the whole thing point by point, apart from a few points that I actually do agree with. But it took too long and I had other things to do - like walk the dog.

    So while we're at it...
    It's a pdf (sorry about that).
    http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

    The alpha Dominance thing is for people who still think the earth is flat. I know you're out there.

  4. #24
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    I think there is a difference between being a pack leader and dominance theory. The latter implies aggression (as stated in your article Hyacinth) whereas the first is about leadership in a calm assertive manner. None of the OP points mentioned aggression.

    I still think the points in the OP were valid but not necessarily the theory behind them ie. that every time the dog does something "naughty", for example jumping up, stealing food etc.they are tying to be dominant. I do not think this is a challenge to the pack leader, they're just being exuberant and need to learn the rules. However, whatever the reason behind using 'rules' I still think it is important to have them and be consistent, especially when you have a new puppy. I have always:

    Eaten before my dogs
    Make them sit and wait while I put their food down until I say OK,
    Won't let them pull on the lead (still a work in progress with Jenna ),
    Don't make a big fuss of them when I first get back from being out,
    They are never allowed in my bedroom (personal preference),
    Not allowed on the furniture (again personal preference - I don't want to walk round with white fur on my butt all day ),
    When we are going on a walk I go through the door/gate first and she waits for me to call her through, If she just wants to go out into the garden on her own for a wee or mooch or whatever I just let her out, not a problem, she seems to understand the difference.
    When playing Tug of war I win most of the time and when we are finished I keep the toy and put it away till next time.
    Ensure my 4 year old feeds Jenna sometimes and makes her sit just as we do. Also when playing he will tell her to sit before he throws the toy or whatever. She does listen to him. I think this is very important.
    And a bunch of other stuff which, I'm sure, people would disagree with but I have been blessed with gentle submissive dogs who have been no real trouble. Is this because of how I treat them or is it just the way they are? I suppose we will never know, but it works for me so it's what I will continue to do.

    Just wanted to add, the one 'rule' I definitely break - I am often on the floor giving Jenna cuddle while I watch TV, I just can't help myself she's so cute and fluffy
    Last edited by Tkay; 11-05-2009 at 09:12 AM.
    The best things in life, aren't things

  5. #25
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    Great post TKay.

    Same here for most of those things, which are not neccesarily a dominance issue, but ruddy common sense.

    1) We eat before the dog. No table scraps are given, and he is not fed stuff from our plates during a meal. He lies or sits calmly/quietly and does not disturb us when we are having a meal.
    2) Zed must sit before I place his bowl down. He waits until I give the command 'ok eat'. I have done that all my life, and it certainly helps towards training a dog not to take food offered by strangers (which is foolish IMO for baiting reasons etc.)
    3) No lead pulling. Dog must heel correctly at my side - still a work in progress here too! Lol.
    4) No attention when I get back from being out somewhere. After a few minutes he settles and then I give him my undivided attention. IMO helps to relieve SA. My going out then becomes 'no big deal.' (Still working on that one too with new boy.)
    5) My bedroom downstairs. Zed will not go down those stairs. If he does, no worries, but no being on beds or furniture. I vacuum every day (FGS he's losing his coat like mad) so I'm not about to add the lounge suite and all the bedding to the daily wash list! Anyway, if he was on the lounge, where would WE sit!
    6) I ALWAYS go through gates first. He must either 'stay' or 'come' as commanded. I'm not about to be taking him back in every time I open a gate to go into a different section of yard or somewhere where he is not allowed! So yes, I always go before him in that regard.
    7) My dogs must obey our children too! Agree, it is imperative. IMO they are higher than the dog in the family heirachy, and must stay that way. Having said that, my children are fully understanding of how they must behave with the dog, and what they can/can't or should/shouldn't do. If they make a mistake, then it is explained to them, so they can learn for next time. (Just like all of us.)
    8) I will not walk around my dog lying on the floor unless there is ample room to do so. I will step over him, but more often I will request he move. To me, this is actually a common sense thing.
    At certain times when everyone is running in and out of the house, a dog can lie in places that are likely to cause not only an accident/ fall to us but the possibility of being unintentionally hurt themselves.

    There are so many things on the OP's list that I choose to do it's not funny. That goes for Fedra's points also. But no, not all. We all choose. I think it is also how we look at it. Some may call it dominance, some may call it leadership...

    I also think dogs relate differently and behave differently for various people. For example, when I was discussing my dog during the purchase process with the breeder, I lost track of the amount of times she kept pushing to me how 'dominant' he is. She said that 'give him an inch, this fellow will take a mile.' Out of all her dogs, he was the one who would always challenge her authority and push the boundaries. I mean, she REALLY pushed that home to me...Alas, I have not found him to be like that one tiny bit so far. I'm actually scratching my head wondering if she has flown down the right dog? Lol. Is he digging holes, she asks? Definately not, hasn't even thought about it? Is he chewing the hoses? Not a one, hasn't even looked at them. Is he disobeying commands? No way. Is he disregarding our orders to NOT get on the beds or lounges? Tried once, was told 'no' and hasn't done it again.
    He is always playing, or running, or walking with me, or training, or just following us around and being with us whatever we are doing. Baffling. Interesting.

    What a long post! Sorry. I should go and mow the block I think.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    I'm really sorry you find yourself offended Huskymum, that wasn't my intention at all. However, I still hold my opinion about what was written in that text. Clearly, I look at it from dogs perspective and I absolutely do not agree with most of it. So, sorry again.
    Hi Fedra

    I appreciate that you do not agree with the text. It wasn't that you dissagreed that offended me but the manner with which you happened to reply. I took that as a personal attack. Yes you can be blunt but there are ways of getting your point accross without the agression.

    Perhaps Diesel is not a Wolf Hybrid but I think that was pointed out quite early and that was my mistake.
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  7. #27
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    I have two dominant dogs living together atm. Doof is a standover man...literally...he will stand over other dogs and just wait until they comply. He isn't aggressive but he will retaliate if provoked. Jacob is an 11 year cross who has been an only child his whole life. He was adopted by my mum through my rescue a couple of years ago. Jacob is intolerant of other dogs and has bad manners when it comes to acting like a dog. The boys get on with no arguments. Jacob wants to kill the cat but a spray bottle with water is bringing his understanding of "leave the effing cat alone" forward quite well whilst he is staying with us for a week.

    No one has been alpha rolled...no one has been screamed at or carted off physically...

    Life isn't perfect - Rufus forgot how to sit at training last week and he still comes back when he is good and ready when he is offlead and not in class (goes offlead only at training so I can work on his recalls) - but this is getting better.

    Am I the alpha in my pack? Does it matter? We are all getting along quite well and are perfectly happy. Things are progressing - my dog and I are not perfect yet - but he is just a pup and he will learn.

    I ran Doof with 12 huskies over the weekend. The dogs ran fine together - chased some Alpacas and generally had a great time. The boys grumbled at each other ocassionally and the girls told the boys to piss off when they got too hot and heavy. Rufus picked a girl coming onto heat so he was following her around like a lovestruck teenager.

    Owners had control over their dogs - all was fine

    next evening went for a run in the park with goodiesgirl who had Jack and Mia, Soph who had 3 huskies and Rufus and Jacob. Enclosed park - quite a few other dogs - small dogs, big dogs - most offlead. Kids playing, riding scooters etc etc

    All of our dogs were eventually offlead. No fights. No harassment (well doof did start to follow another shep around but I grabbed him). Only Jacob was a real pain and had to go on lead cause he wouldn't stay near us.

    The first time I have had fun at an offlead park.

    I had to go after a dog and put it on lead...I had to call doof a few times to get him to come back.

    Does all of this mean that I am not leading my dogs adequately? Will I be eaten at night by my wild dogs? I don't think so. Life is a work in progress...

  8. #28
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    Will I be eaten at night by my wild dogs?

    LMAO!

    Occy, you have a wonderful and hilarious way with words.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tkay View Post
    I think there is a difference between being a pack leader and dominance theory. The latter implies aggression (as stated in your article Hyacinth) whereas the first is about leadership in a calm assertive manner. None of the OP points mentioned aggression.
    That is correct minust the word "pack". My family is not a pack, and we do not behave like a pack. Dogs do not form packs but social groups (but you can call it whatever) which work in a completely different way than the ones wolves form. If someone wants to argue I'll explain. None of the OP points mentioned aggression, but when you read books about dog training that are based on "alpha theories" you will find they contain and suggest quite a lot of it.

    I have always:
    Eaten before my dogs
    OK if you think it matters to your dogs, fine (I asure you they don't give a damn about it
    Make them sit and wait while I put their food down until I say OK,
    Won't let them pull on the lead (still a work in progress with Jenna ),
    Don't make a big fuss of them when I first get back from being out,
    They are never allowed in my bedroom (personal preference),
    Not allowed on the furniture (again personal preference - I don't want to walk round with white fur on my butt all day ),
    That's OK, and these are your rules, however it's got nothing to do with dominance or "alpha theory"

    And a bunch of other stuff which, I'm sure, people would disagree with but I have been blessed with gentle submissive dogs who have been no real trouble. Is this because of how I treat them or is it just the way they are? I suppose we will never know, but it works for me so it's what I will continue to do.
    Maybe a bit of both Although I don't consider polite and well mannered as submissive.

    ust wanted to add, the one 'rule' I definitely break - I am often on the floor giving Jenna cuddle while I watch TV, I just can't help myself she's so cute and fluffy
    Trust me, you are not "breaking" anything. Especially not rules.

    Being a leader is necessary, of course. But those theories are wrong and mean either nothing to dogs or are confusing and are putting dogs in not so pretty position. I mean you have to force your dog to walk behind you and do something unpleasant if he must have his ears pulled back and look submissive. You don't treat your friends like they're less worthy and you don't force them into submission, they'd tell you to F** off, dogs wouldn't, and those who would get pts. And again, I don't want a submissive dog, I want polite, well mannered dog that will be my partner, the part of my family, my friend. So far I have two of those (and had many before them) and I am quite happy with them. They're far from perfect, but so am I, and I'm proud of them. I know I am their leader, and that was not achieved by following any rules but those that I naturally need in my home and/or street, around people etc.

    Huskymum, yes I do come across as a bit blunt and straight forward, sorry again. I just get stirred up to easily.
    Last edited by Fedra; 11-05-2009 at 04:49 PM.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Rural NSW
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    I agree totally with Occy. All my dogs during my time have just fitted in in their slot. The most I have had at any one time was 3....till now, lol. There were fights between 2 of them, they couldn't stand each other. I did not have much time to work on that as unfortunately the younger one was accidently run over when working. Usually they just kept their wary distance and I left them to sort it until it came to fights, then the hose was used to good effect.

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