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Thread: local councils that allow puppy sales at local monthly markets??

  1. #1

    Default local councils that allow puppy sales at local monthly markets??

    I live in puppy mill central, both registered and non-registered we boast some of the worst cases of puppy mills. it takes months to collect enough "evidence" to prosecute. don't know why you just have to look. the RSPCA is not allowed to be involved much it is the job of the DPI. some of the people busted just start up again under a new kennel name, they rent land and just move a few km's down the road. most once they are investigated just get rid of some dogs and force the investigation to close and then they start straight back up knowing it will take months again to get investigated and then more months to get evidence on them and so the cycle can go on indefinitely.

    but what this thread is about is the legalistics of local councils allowing people to rent a stall at the local markets and sell puppies from unregistered breeders. they are mainly toy dog crosses, working dog crosses and mastiff/ bull dog crosses.

    the council provides an excellent venue and many are back EVERY month with a few cages of puppies. they are welcome by the council and the pet supply shop has special cheap nasty products ready because people come in every month from the markets buying the cheapest food and toys they can get.

    how can councils allow this legally?

    note: some people are too cheap to rent a stall, they park outside the market with a cage of puppies and a big sign?

    I guess this is all legal?
    Last edited by muttboy; 04-08-2015 at 04:15 PM.

  2. #2
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    I'm stuffed if I know.

    What you would have to do is to get people who frequent the market to write to the council and complain. And talk to your local council reps - explain the problem and ask how - for starters - you get the illegal stalls removed. A photo of boot full of puppies and the licence plate should be a good start.

    I've gotten plenty of illegally parked people to move along doing that (school drop off can be a bitch - especially when I'm there to say - you have to leave room between cars on opposite sides of the road to let the garbage trucks through.

  3. #3
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    The only animals I've seen sold at markets are chickens and ducks... I was not aware that puppies being sold at markets was even happening!

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I'm stuffed if I know.

    1. What you would have to do is to get people who frequent the market to write to the council and complain.

    2. And talk to your local council reps - explain the problem and ask how - for starters - you get the illegal stalls removed.

    3. A photo of boot full of puppies and the licence plate should be a good start.

    1. the people that frequent the markets don't have a problem with puppy stalls, it is an attraction for the kids.

    2. I have talked to my local reps, they do not see it as a problem, they think it is good. my local dog club complained and got called a bunch of whingers in the local paper. the stalls are not illegal as far as I can tell, the council collects their money from them and gives them full rights to the space.

    3. why a photo, they park in the most visible spot there is, with some 2000 cars going past them on market day about 5m away.


    thanks for trying tho.

  5. #5
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    A few months ago around here, somebody bought a car-full of puppies to a local horse sale/auction. The puppies were very sick looking and a lot of people bought them just to 'save' them. It turns out the puppies had parvo and they all died while in their new homes, a few of the new owner's other dogs also got sick so it cost a lot of different people (I think there were 12 or so puppies) a lot of money on vet care for their new pups and other dogs etc.


    Word got around and at the next horse sale a few weeks later, a lot of people refused to go as they knew there had been parvo there and were worried about it being in the soil, and them bringing it home on their shoes.. the number of people there were cut by about 50% so a lot of horses suffered as they were purchased by the slaughter house rather than people willing to give them new homes.

    It may have been a bit of an over-reaction as the people could've just disinfected their shoes on their return home but it was a very viscious cycle and a lot of people and animals suffered just because some idiot didn't desex his 'farm dog' (they were kelpie cross).
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 04-09-2015 at 11:02 AM.

  6. #6
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    Hi Muttboy

    1. the people that frequent the markets don't have a problem with puppy stalls, it is an attraction for the kids.
    Maybe you could educate the parents about puppies and worms and tape worms and the cost of not doing heatlh checks. And all those things that K M mentioned. Just casual comment like "they've probably got tape worm"

    2. I have talked to my local reps, they do not see it as a problem, they think it is good. my local dog club complained and got called a bunch of whingers in the local paper. the stalls are not illegal as far as I can tell, the council collects their money from them and gives them full rights to the space.
    The stalls in the market might not be illegal but council generally takes a dim view of people trying to cheat them out of their money ie the ones that don't pay for a stall. You may also want to inform the RSPCA - who take a dim view of the practice. Also ask if the puppies are microchippped. Ask to see what the microchip number is for the puppy of your choice. Ask why council would support illegal puppy sales and bump it up a notch - contact your state rep or a city based state MP.

    https://www.qld.gov.au/families/gove.../pet-laws.html
    All dogs and cats born after 10 April 2009 must be microchipped before they are sold or given away. All regulated dogs must be microchipped regardless of when they were born.
    You can't really hand out leaflets because most councils ban this. Even if they don't enforce it. But you can be armed with knowledge about the industry and ask questions like.
    "Can I meet the mother and father so I know what they will be like when they grow up"
    "how old is the mother?"
    "how many litters has the mother had?"
    "have they been microchipped, wormed, vaccinated?"

    "how old are they?"
    In some states it is illegal to remove a puppy that is less than 8 weeks old from its litter (unless there is recommended by a vet ie for sick puppy or mother).

    Don't bombard the stall owner with questions - maybe have a few friends or family go with you and all ask some different questions. Don't look like you're together.


    3. why a photo, they park in the most visible spot there is, with some 2000 cars going past them on market day about 5m away.
    If they're running a stall without a permit - that's part of your evidence. Ie when council asks them what they were doing - they can't say they weren't there, didn't have any puppies. Really good if you get any kind of picture of "for sale" and a price. Eg ask if you can video the puppies to help your family decide, and then ask about the price. Helps if there is more than one of you - ie one to video and one to play with the puppies.

    If you're planning on talking to them - don't say about evidence. Tho I've been asked - and I say you know you can't park there, and they say why? and I tell them about the 3 metre rule. And they move their car. I'm not sure a puppy stall holder would do that.

    Contact some of the people mentioned in this article and ask them what you'd need to do.
    Queensland Labor announces puppy farm crackdown - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    seems like all puppy farms are supposed to be licenced...
    Dr Anthony Lynham | STATE MEMBER FOR STAFFORD

  7. #7

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    I think you would find that the council deals with the organisers of the markets and not individual stall holders. So find out who they are and whether they have any rules and regulations for stall holders. They would also be your first port of call for complaints – and then you go up the line until you find someone that will act on your complaint.

    An example:

    Stallholder Rules and Regulations - Craft Markets Australia

    I agree with ‘Hyacinth' about educating people on the legalities of selling puppies like this. Pups must be micro chipped and 8 weeks of age before they are eligible for sale. Were the parents of the litters registered with the local council ? Are the breeders registered as breeders with their local council ?

    Look up your local council laws/rules/legislation regarding dogs. Even though your local council may sit on their hands about all of this – the council is responsible via State Legislation to act where the relevant laws have been broken.

    https://www.qld.gov.au/families/gove.../pet-laws.html

    I don’t envy you trying to get changes made here. $$$$$$$ speak louder than anything else I know of. If laws are being broken – then that is the only way you will have a win here !

    Good Luck !

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristy.Maree View Post
    A few months ago around here, somebody bought a car-full of puppies to a local horse sale/auction. The puppies were very sick looking and a lot of people bought them just to 'save' them. It turns out the puppies had parvo and they all died while in their new homes, a few of the new owner's other dogs also got sick so it cost a lot of different people (I think there were 12 or so puppies) a lot of money on vet care for their new pups and other dogs etc.


    Word got around and at the next horse sale a few weeks later, a lot of people refused to go as they knew there had been parvo there and were worried about it being in the soil, and them bringing it home on their shoes.. the number of people there were cut by about 50% so a lot of horses suffered as they were purchased by the slaughter house rather than people willing to give them new homes.

    It may have been a bit of an over-reaction as the people could've just disinfected their shoes on their return home but it was a very viscious cycle and a lot of people and animals suffered just because some idiot didn't desex his 'farm dog' (they were kelpie cross).
    I am absolutely gobsmacked with your story above.

    Desexing his 'farm dog' was not the only thing wrong here. Parvo is such an insidious disease and can be prevented by a vaccination. It does stay in the soil for a long time - so I do understand people not turning up for the next sale of horses.

    I hope the people running the sale/auction have learnt their lesson.

    For the life of me - I do not understand - Why people would buy a pup that looks unhealthy because they feel sorry for it ? Until people change their attitude about this sort of thing - BYBs, Puppy Farmers and the rest - will keep on going on !

    Would anyone buy for example - a shirt or a car with obvious flaws because they feel sorry for it ?

  9. #9

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    thanks for suggestions and especially the links.

    I will try do what I can, I have talked about it a lot to the lady that runs the local obed club, she also fosters a lot of dogs from puppy mill busts. she speaks directly to the RSPCA and council about all issues dog.

    the problem is that most people do not get from my posts it is not about evidence, the evidence is all laid out in full sight, the council even has a compliance officer on site at every market. he mainly tells people that bring their pets for a stroll around the markets to get their dogs out off the grounds and checks for council rego tags.

    HE THE COUNCIL COMPLIANCE OFFICER sees the stalls, the council are fully aware of them at the highest level of council - it is not a problem to them, they take the money from the stall holders.

    we have a more enlightened (I hope) member since the election, I will make aan appointment armed with print off of those links hyacinth posted.

    the fact that these dogs are NOT micr0-chipped etc is a selling point, the stall holders say that is why the can supply them so cheap, there is nothing to uncover, it is all out in the open and up front just nobody in authority gives a rats arse...that is the problem, it has nothing to do with evidence.

    on another note the local noticeboards and paper are full of cheap dogs for sale, same problem.

    the latest one that annoys me and is a growing trend is an ad for red nose cross neo cross American bulldogs sold as great family protectors.

    a red nose is in the folk-lore the fightingest of the fighting pit bulls, the ad does not come straight out and say pit bull but WTF else is a red-nose, it is local code for pit bull.

    these dogs a being bred en masse and attract a lot of the low socio economic buyers.

    they are also advertised as American bullies which is a made up breed using oversized pit bulls, attracts the gangsta rapper crowd.

    one American bully line here crosses blue staffies with red-nose pitts, the blue staffy I believe is a fault and a recessive that can carry health issues, they sell for $800 a piece as young pups and the ones that don't sell ie the not blue ones get cheaper by the week until the unsold ones get dumped.

    rumours are some guys are knocking the ones that are not blue on the head as pups cos they do not sell as much as the blue ones.

    the lady I mentioned earlier breeds (ANKC registered) and shows staffies, she is pissed off.

  10. #10
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    THE THE COUNCIL COMPLIANCE OFFICER sees the stalls, the council are fully aware of them at the highest level of council - it is not a problem to them, they take the money from the stall holders.
    Ah well councils are full of this kind of crap but our local government act (state based), requires that council officers implement council policy and laws. So if they are not doing this, first you talk to your rep and the CEO.

    And then, dunno about QLD, but SA has an Ombudsman. Who is responsible for making sure that councils do what they're legally supposed to do.

    So some of my requests for "enforcement" come with the relevant bits of the legislation quoted or refered to. I got an amazing results quoting the LGA act and council policies that refer to the requirement to service local rate payers and residents. Sports clubs (and market stall holders) do not even get a mention.

    nobody in authority gives a rats arse
    You haven't found the right authority. But evidence is for proving what is going on, nothing like a bit of video taken this weekend, played back to the people responsible for enforcement and then the stall holder when he says he's not selling unmicrochipped puppies.

    And why is micrchipping becoming mandatory? Because un-microchipped dogs end up being PTS at the pound because their owners can't be found. And PTS stats really upset the city folk... (hence get a state rep involved - they're the ones who passed the legislation).

    I find out what the rules are, I make complaints to the lowest level of authority - I document the breaches, and the responses, and then I go to someone who does care and say... here's what I did, here's what happened, it's breaking the law, When the compliance officer ignores illegal activity right in front of him - that can be perceived (not actual - unless you've got proof), as corrupt.

    If you don't collect the evidence and lay it out, all that happens is the compliance officer goes and asks the stall holder (eventually) who denies everything and nothing happens.

    Ie it might be obvious to you but it gets more and more murky the further you get from the market and the closer you get to a court house. And collecting the evidence for the council, RSPCA and state government - makes their job so much easier cos they don't have to do it.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 04-11-2015 at 11:15 AM.

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